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Forum Index : EV's : EV 6
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Trev Guru  Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
We have discovered how long a set of brushes lasts. This double shaft motor was fitted 347555. Speedo reading now is 384868. That is 37313km on the set of brushes. I would recommend changing them sooner than this. I run out of brushes, 3 car lengths from the traffic lights, in peak traffic. I just had to push it off the road. The Hilux is sign posted too. The word Electric on both sides and rear, as well as “Drive by Nature” and the website written on the vertical board at the front of the tray. Here is shot from our day at Eco Expo. You should be able to see the signage. 
A little embarrassing, but at least we now know how far the brushes will go.  
I pulled the motor out to check the coupling washers. All in good condition. Should get plenty of Km’s out of them. 
I have read a bit about advancing the motor to get a bit more power out of it. Big mistake. So all those considering the same thing, I hope you read this post first. I advanced it about 6 degrees. There was no increase power, but reduced, and lasted only 9km. After dismantling, 2 comm bars were evidently effected and somewhat raised. Black burn marks further in on the armature. 
I removed the armature and spun it on the lathe. Cut a little on comm bars and can be seen in the pic. The shiny patch has been machined.  
Then I machined the lot down till round again. There was about 0.5mm difference between the high and low patches. In this pic you can see 2 of the burn areas. 
I put it all back together. The motor still runs, but has a lump in a 4 quadrant spacing around the full revolution. I have ordered a new armature. I have also taken this one to a motor rewiring business here in Mackay. It will be interesting to see if it can be rewired. They were going to have a look at it and get back to me. Here is a couple of pics from either end of the field windings.  
Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Trev That looks expensive, are you sure that the 6 degree advance did all that damage. Was it poling as the look of the poles is like it was arcing bit, hard to tell from a photo. The look of the com is like it had shorted turns in the windings. Did it damage the controller? All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Looks like a starter motor I rewound out of a big grader a few years back. It can't see any reason why the pro's couldn't rewind it easily. Those string ties part way up the armature look to mean that the slots aren't captive slots,.. hence the need for the tiedown. Should make it very very much easier to rewind. It appears to be single turn wave winding, same as a starter motor. The only tricky bit I found was getting that "twist" at the output end right. If you don't pretwist your wire to the right angles, you will never get the last 10 slots in. If you get it right, it is a doddle, and you wonder what all the fuss is about (took me 2 days to work out the right angle and find success... I'm a slow learner.), but I had the captive slots, (and I had to make the copper bars from 3 in hand 2mm wire) so I could not place them in the wide slots like that one appears. (mine all had to slide up the slotlength) I'm not sure I would blame the advancing just yet, unless perhaps that motor was wound advanced, and your extra 6 degrees was then over the top advanced... but that's unlikely, as it would mean very poor reverse (unless your using the gearbox for this). I would expect that type of motor to be designed to perform well in either rotation. If it was better one way than the other, it may well have been biased already.... like a vacuumme cleaner motor. They are already near 2 full segments or so advanced. They will burn out in reverse if you rewire the fields to go backwards.... unless you shift the brushes about 4 segments back at the same time. I agree with Bob, something did not do those field shoes any favours...... I'm more inclined to blame the worn brushes for messing things up. If you lose one, you run on 2. You then draw the same (or usually much worse) current, and get less power out.... More in and less out = burn out... and thats not talking about the physical damage the copper wires in the dying brushes are doing dragging and spot welding onto the armature.... and possibly bits lodging themselves in between the armature and the field shoes.... maybe that explains the copper bits that appear to be stuck to the shoes in the pictures. Not pretty at all..... now I will have to go out and check mine. My few thousand Kms have all been done in the paddocks.... It won't be so embarrassing when the cows see me push it when the time comes. ......oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
Poling, don't know. Possibly was arching a bit. But I don't recall any burn marks on the armature when I changed the brushes. The motor still ran smooth after changing the brushes. A little clicking in the brush area. I just thought it was the new brushes. There were some of the old brushes that had stuck in the brush holder. In the pic above you can see at the top left the longest one. It had stuck and not worn down as the others. There was a bit a variation between the brush lengths. But of course it was when the brush springs reached their limit when all stopped. I had not noticed any reduction in power the few Km's before it stopped. Only metres before, it missed a beat. Whether it had been damaged before or not the damage was evident after I had made the advance. After the damage, I went been back to the reading and found that the ADC is already advance 10 degrees. I had added another 6. The Netgain WarP motors are advanced 12 degrees. So with new brushes, is why I assumed it to be the advance. There is a copper spray on the field wire. This has come from in the armature winding just in from the commutator. It is possible that carbon or copper from the old brushes were lodged in between the comm bars or somewhere in the motor. I did run a scraper through the gaps between the comm bars though and sanded the comm bars with wet and dry sandpaper before refitting the end plate with the new brushes. Hence the first picture of the comm bars being quite black and the second picture is much cleaner. Only a burn mark half the width of the brushes. The brush holders were a bit floppy and the brushes had not seated in properly. I have now fixed the brush holders. Now saying that, it could also be that I expected too much from it with the brushes not seated properly. I did do high speed for at least 5 of the 9 Km. No damage to the speed controller. Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
[quote]I had not noticed any reduction in power the few Km's before it stopped. Only metres before, it missed a beat.[/quote] This implies it was running on a single brush set. If all four were working, and one failed, you would still keep going at a reduced power. If you weren't pushing it hard, it may not be noticed much, just a bit sluggish. When you lost the second brush, you lost the lot.... so thats why I still think brush... BUT If you were already 10 degrees advanced, another 6 would be pushing it, and I would expect arcing under heavy load/high speed. If we had extra advance AND were missing a brush, were doomed under medium load and for full power... well..... ..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
There is the possibility that the brush problems seen now, stemmed from the controller problems a while back. There would have been serious currents then, that could have damaged the brush holders. It still seems like servicing is still needed at regular intervals. Maybe a permanent magnet motor and brushless controller is on the cards :) Simplicity, and servicing would still win out for me in a car though. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
Oztules, thinking about it, I did notice a little more power use in my normal day to day driving. Gordon, that is a possibility too. When the speed controller burnt it just opened up battery pack straight to the motor. Just this morning I recieved an email. I have been granted dealership of Netgain motors. So I may try a WarP 11. I will put in an order soon. If anyone is interested in a WarP motor, email me direct. Multiples can work out cheaper. Gordon, Permanent magnet and brushless sounds good. Maybe this can be your next project....and as a wheel motor! Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Trev Thinking about the situation with your motor it could have been some residual copper particles or even carbon build up that gave a carbon track effect inside the motor as the high voltage DC likes to run where it shouldn't and als0 if there was any sparking on the new brushes it can cause very high voltage spikes to set it off, once it tracked it would self destruct. High Gordon I have a little 3 phase brush less motor for a model aircraft its 3" long and 2.5" diameter an out runner with the magnets in the outer case that revolves it makes 2+ HP according to the specs. It is so simple that there is nothing to go wrong, if it was scaled up it would be easy to make the only thing would be the cost of curved neo magnets. The armature is a simple laminated stack with single windings on each pole, once again easy to do, it would require a cooling fan cast alum a job for Trev. The controller is a standard A/C model device and use it to trigger a FET bank for the higher power. Also would be a ripper alternator for a wind turbine. What do you think All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
The business in Mackay cannot do the rewire on the armature. They gave me a business in Brisbane that should be able to do the rewind. I looked up their website, some impressive stuff. I emailed them but got no reply. As I said above I have ordered a new armature anyway. I have also now ordered several motors from Netgain. Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5024 |
Hey Trev I was talking to a mechanic mate, Ross Torrisi, you might know him. He said you should be able to get the motor rewound locally. There are firms here that can rewind motors for the draglines, so we should have the expertise locally. Would you like me to chase it up? Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Trev I asked the guy from Toowoomba and showed him the picture and he said they could do it but cost around $1200 so that's out I think. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5024 |
Hi Trev I spoke to Ross and he said send it to A.C.Hargraves & Co in Brisbane. He's delt with them heaps and is happy with the service. The contact is Paul Mylonas, Ph 07 3378 2222. They have a web site at http://www.achargreaves.com.au/. There are local rewinders, but you end up paying more in Mackay Tax* than the freight to send it to Brisbane. Let us know how you go. Glenn * Mackay Tax. Mackay is a mining town, everything here costs about 30% more than everywhere else. Its cheaper to drive the 30km to the nearby township of Sarina to buy your groceries than buying them in Mackay. The term Mackay Tax is used locally when something costs more than it should. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
Thanks Bob and Glenn for the info. AC Hargraves is the place in Brisbane that was given to me from the motor rewind business in Mackay. I did send a message through their website and got no reply. I have just sent another message through their website tonight. I have not been concerned at all, since I have ordered a new armature and several motors from Netgain as well. I have plenty of options. But it would be good to know if it could be done and what the cost would be. Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
Well you wouldn't believe it but today at the QME (Queensland Mining Expo - a very huge event) I met up with Alex from AC Hargraves. He just happened to come passed our stand (Mackay Christian College Trade Training Centre). We talked for some time. Apparently the last month there has been website changes, and must be a connection error with the website contact. Thats why there was no response. Marcy also rang Paul for me and then also sent an email. I should have some more info soon. edit Ross Torrisi is also a friend of the family Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
We did get a price to do the rewire at AC Hargraves. It was only a few days after my last post here. They said that the armature could be rewired. I am not sure if they misunderstood something or whatever, but they guess would be something like $6000. A complete new ADC motor is only $2772. I am expecting the new armature to be around $1000 all costed to Australia. Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Trev It sounds to me like we need to learn how to wind our own motors, as the cost I have been quoted are astronomical also. Have you given any thought to making a three phase motor for EV's as the permag one is relatively simple, with your skills as a foundry to make the smaller parts, and a piece of tube machined to hold magnets, With your contacts for magnets it may be possible to get some made at a reasonable price. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
While the EV Hilux was off the road I decided to give it a face lift.  
 
The damaged ADC motor gave me an excuse to go bigger. Though I will get a new armature for the ADC9. I have taken up dealership with WarP motors. ADC don't make an 11 inch. The new WarP motors arrived. About 2 weeks ago I fitted up a WarP 11. The adaptor plate fitted straight on, but I needed to modify the length of the coupling a little to work on the shaft. The shaft is the same diameter. The steel engine bracket was lengthened and strengthened. I still have the Curtis controller. I wanted to compare between ADC9 and Warp11 with no other changes. There is a bit more torque in the WarP11. I can now take off in third gear and keep up with regular traffic, though still is not a super car. The other day I had a newer model 2.7 Hilux beside me, front row at the lights. I took off in third gear and he beat me, but only just, to 80km/hr (speed limit). Power consumption is similar to the ADC9. I will do a range test sometime to be more precise. Speedo reading when I fitted the WarP11 is 384877 minus the 7km on the trip meter. That was the first test drive. So it can be taken from 384870. It is now 385785 - 384870 = 915km in 2 weeks. I have to say I am happy with the WarP motor. I am sure that the other sizes in WarP and ImPulse would also deliver good performance.  
Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
I have done some acceleration testing for the WarP 11 motor. I can take off in 3rd gear and keep up with regular traffic. But here are the numbers. 0-60km/hr 9 seconds 0-80km/hr 17 seconds 0-100km/hr 28 seconds This is only 1 second better than I got out of the ADC 9 motor. I then wound up the acceleration rate on the Curtis speed controller, as far as I could. This was the first time to experiment with the acceleration rate. It does not appear to accelerate any faster, but does reduce the lapse time in take up when throttle is applied. So in changing gears the throttle take up time is quicker. It gives a better driving feel. The acceleration rates are a little better. 0-60km/hr 8 seconds 0-80km/hr 15 seconds 0-100km/hr 25 seconds Range appeared to be better with the bigger motor. Yesterday I did the 100km/hr range test, driving the same road as all other tests. I still managed to get the 100km range. The speedo trip meter does not like to go passed the 100km mark, it jammed again about 4-5km from home. So range travelled was about 104km, using 20.4kw.  
Last test I used 21.9kw to do 102km. (just checked old posts, made a mistake in the distance travelled, written 202km, should be 102km). So while it is not much, the WarP 11 is better for efficiency, than the ADC 9, in this vehicle at 100km/hr. The batteries are wearing down. The 100km is all I could get driving mostly at the 100km/hr. There is still power in the batteries to drive slower, but I don't imagine it would be much. 20kw could be considered capacity now. These batteries were fitted with speedo reading 350153. So with current reading 389267 - 350153 = 39114 km travelled. So for the way Bruce wanted it to be calculated....... (good on ya Bruce - great fella). Battery cost is $1.80/ah x 45 cells x 200ah = $16,200 (price when fitted). $16,200 / 39114km = $0.41 cents /km, but they are still not dead yet. The 20kw is still plenty for my daily driving, which uses around 16kw. Of course the selling price for Thundersky at the moment is $1.52/ah. (Good time to buy). If this were the price then, $1.52/ah x 45 cells x 200ah = $13680 $13680 / 39114km = 0.35 cents per km. Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
I just read up on the EVME looks pretty good and claimed returns of 13-15KW/hrs per 100KMS and with a 35KW/hr pack makes for formidable range. I reckon she's a goer and I can justify it as soon as the mortgage has sufficient funds available for that kind of re-draw.... looks like the order of $70K..... think next car will be plug in electric for me but unfortunately, its 5 years away for me as my existing fleet of V70 T5 Volvos (ie 2 of them) have stuff all kms 135K, and 155K so i've got three years in one and five in the other ..... Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
Planning to make a new wind gen tower. I need to carry long lengths of gal pipe. But with the face lift on the EV Hilux front, I decided that the front carry bar should be mounted better, mounting it on the chassis instead of on the bumper. So welded up the holes in the bumper before painting. I have just finished changing the bottom end of the front carry bar. Much better now, bolts to the chassis. In the first picture you can see what used to be on the bottom and the way it is made now.  
The balancing of the cells has still been ongoing. I have had to manual balance every few months or so with my 144v pack. The 144v pack goes out of balance probably because of the high current discharges, older pack and uneven temperatures between cells. The max voltage per cell probably has some efect too. And the monitoring system, anything conected to individual cells will unbalance the cell voltages. But I am not prepared to go without monitoring, I want to know where the pack is at. The 12v pack was measured this after noon with a difference of 0.18v. This 12v battery has not been balanced since I had the first Relativites test on for a few weeks, back in October 2008, about 1 year 4 months. This does not have anything connected to individual cells, all low current operation, not charged too high, and identical temperature in each cell. But yet there is some difference. Many new circuit configurations have been tested on Gordon's 24v wind/solar setup. While the Relativities circuits work perfectly, we would like to see yet higher current transfer between cells for large EV battery packs, simply because of the long distance between each circuit from one end of the pack to the other. These Relativities circuits are perfect for small battery packs, 12v and 24v. The transfer rate is up to 1 amp. Just recently we believe we have hit the jackpot. The latest test on single cell circuit draws its power from the whole pack and delivers directly to low voltage cells, and transfers up to 3 amps. Each cell requires one circuit. It does not active balance like the Relativities, it can only balance at the top end of charge. This circuit will work perfectly on battery packs of different number of cells. It works perfectly with an input voltage of 48v up to I expect something like 260v, maybe more. I don't know. I could only test on my pack of 168v peak (144v nominal) and worked perfectly. Output of 3.7v regulated or fixed regardless of what the input voltage is. I am currently looking into the costs of production. 
Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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