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Forum Index : Solar : Li -ion battery
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| bob.steel Senior Member  Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
Yep I can see your points .To each his own but its said if you get more than 3 years from Lead acid you are not using them. Not much I disagree with except the sealed in plastic cases can be opened . Before I bought my latest acquisitions I pulled a big one apart to have a look  Here is an old one that I resurected . It had dendrites and one cell shorted . If you know what you are doing you can get them back up and charging . Its about 8 years old now and still shows 90% capacity.  There are LTO cells on the market with massive charge and discharge rates but they are too exxy for me. These are cheap . Cheaper than lead acid now. Edited 2022-02-09 11:56 by bob.steel |
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Revlac Guru  Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
Have seen a few (drop in replacement lithium forklift batteries for sale, don't know who is using them. @Godoh What type and brand where those telecom batteries? The might be the same as the ones I had. They where barely usable at 15 years old, many where failing, all where stuffed at 20 years. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 378 |
Hi Aaron, I don't remember the brand, they were clear plastic cases, 200 amp hour each from memory. I was give about 40 of them , so just checked each out, got rid of the ones that had corroded terminals, or did not have good hydrometer readings and used the rest. Some failed over the 5 years I had them but then, I paid nothing for them so it did not matter to me. I have always been pretty minimalist with my stuff. I have always preferred a life/work balance that was heavily weighed on the life side. So have never had enough money before to buy really good quality batteries. Retirement came and enough money to have a good system. Plus panels got really cheap compared to decades ago. So most of my panels are second hand, the batteries are new, new regulators and home made inverters. So far the 8010 based inverters I have put together are doing a great job. A few modifications to the actual 8010 boards that were guided by helpful folk here and on anotherpower site. And a reliable system is there. As you say the telecom batteries were stuffed after 20 years but then the scrap dealers gave me a good price for them. I am hoping that as I am 66 now that the BAE batteries will do me until I am nearly 80, if I am still hanging about this mad and getting madder planet by then. Cheers Pete |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506 |
" To each his own but its said if you get more than 3 years from Lead acid you are not using them. " its comments like this that really peeve me off, one of the forklift batteries Im using is 3 and a half years old, as good as the day i recieved it, I pull a minimum 30 % out of it every night ( common to use 40-50) how is that " not using it " ?? I have nothing against li-ion , but some people are so worried about going off grid because of myths like this, that they need to spends BIG dollars on the latest tech just to get some imaginary time / cycle life , because if its not x brand / type you won't get the cycles / life out of it... which is simply not true... I do totally agree that each to their own, but come on ... revlac, the problem with lithium forklift batteries is a lot to do with counter balance, you NEED the weight, where one of lithiums " pro's " is actually to its detriment.. so unless specific for a special occasion , they will be rare... I think it works !! |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Oh I get it allright! you are one of those Fanbio lithium fanatics that won't have a thing said against them like they are your child or something. Pretty ironic given the rubbish and errors you have spouted. Bwahahaah! Thank Christ for that! There are a Lot of smart, educated and highly intelligent people on this board. I do not consider you to be one of them and as such your opinions and advise hold no weight with me whatsoever. You will be relived to know that I will not miss you not " correcting" me one bit although somehow, I am sure you will not be able to resist the compulsion to do so and grandstand in the process. What???  You can discharge them to zero without damage but don't do it because it can damage them.... And you reckon my comments are wrong? Yours are hypocritical and make no sense! Said the fanboi whom won't have a thing said about his religious like fanaticism with Lipo.  Please feel free to ignore every thing I say. Wouldn't want to waste your Valuable time although I do get a laugh out of your holier than thou BS.  Edited 2022-02-09 17:25 by Davo99 |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Who said that load of crap? You? I have NEVER read that even once. Funny, 2 different people I personally know ( apart from loads I have read testament from on the net) have had LA Batteries for well over 10 Years. Some people I was talking to a fortnight ago were telling me the ones they currently have are 14 Years old and the pack they had before than made it to 16. It's ridiculous crap like this people make up which is typical of the Lipo fanboi compulsion to invent complete lies about LA to make their grandstanding about Lithium seem more compelling. And you have the Gall to say other peoples comments need correcting? Bwahahah!! It had dendrites and one cell shorted . If you know what you are doing you can get them back up and charging . Its about 8 years old now and still shows 90% capacity. So these cells had failed Before they were even 8 years old and most people by your account whom are not of such superior knowledge as yourself, which is most likley everyone else in the world, would have had to throw them away??? Now tell me about the 20 year longevity of Lipo again will you? Oh, and now at 8 years old they are down to 90%... buy your account so I'd expect reality to be more like 50% at best. Does not bode well for their future capacity does it? Yep, there we go with that old chestnut of steaming BS again. Haven't we already had that False claim a page or so back and shown it to be a complete Lie? Yes, that's right, we did!! Did you mean they are cheaper if you can't do basic Multiplication of the cost and then make up excuses to cover the lack of mathematical skills or do you mean in like real money you have to pay for a similar capacity set of LA? No, you can't mean that because that's just a moronic parroted claim that people say but can NEVER prove when the simple question " where can I buy these lithium batteries that are cheaper than LA?" is asked. There is always an excuse or some huffing and puffing but never a credible answer. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The day that lithium beats lead on a Kwh per dollar basis, you will never see another lead battery in any new fork lift. Piston powered fork lifts do just fine with massive cast iron counterweights. Weight is not why lead is used in fork lifts, its COST. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
You are spot on there mate and I see it every day on an off grid forum I am on. People are paying CRAZY money like $30-50K for a solar? battery system because all the vested interests and useful idiots carry on like we have seen here that only lipo can possibly work. They seem to forget the many decades before lithium recently came along that people go on just fine with LA and it served peoples needs well. The people that are using LA are always shouted down and made to look like idiots for not spending 5x more On Lithium to get twice the ( ESTIMATED but unproven) life span. It's very much a conditioning and profit exercise by the industry with the support of those trying to justify their decisions in spending way too much on their system. It would be interesting to get an idea of what percentage of Forks are being fitted with Lithium batteries now and what the bean counters position on them is whom have fleets and have run them against LA. Does Industry find them worthwhile or are they for the majority sticking to LA? If used lithium packs became as available as LA, that might be good but myself, I am yet to see any being offered for sale. |
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| Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
Thanks Pete, Sounds Identical, was also free, The old man and I just had to pick them up.  I'm well aware of the counter balance, plenty of weight on the forklift at home, There are quite a few forklifts with outriggers/wheels that are out as far as the forks, pretty sure they are made for specialised shelving, I did watch a doco a year ago, inside a car manufacturing plant, they had a fleet of driver-less forklifts, they might have used lithium I don't remember, Cost Doesn't matter, just add it to the price of the car. I do agree though, I doubt they will be used in yard forklifts any time soon, for this reason you do need the weight. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
Sorry to interfere here . To answer your original question Go in to Facebook ,go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/271980786862023/ A page I run . Join up by answering the 1 question ,then go to the top right under "Files" and look for LFP facts . Read up there . Its on LFP not Lithium Ion. They are different . Also search on utube for "how Lithium Batteries work" There are many there that will help you understand Daveo is a bit of a nutter who can't stop posting crap. Hess been everywhere and heard it all but never done it and can't stop shouting out his ignorance it seems. . Edited 2022-02-09 21:10 by bob.steel |
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| bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
Look thats all good . Used at 30% lead acid does last. I can use my LFP batteries down to 10 volts on a 12 volt battery so useable range is about 13.6 volts to 11 volts . On a graph that represents about 85 to 90 % of their capacity and they will last more than 10 years doing it that way. What does that give me . Well for one I don't need to have 800 Amphours any more as 200 Amphours of LFP will do the job better. Obviously a lot less cost too. I'm not saying toss yours out . I'm suggesting when they die you replace them with LFP. Contrary to popular hearsay you can parallel them with Lead acid and lead acid will benefit from that as LFP will take most of the work ,supplying current to the load and to the lead acids . There is no reason that will do damage to the LFP . I had such a setup on my boat before the lead acids finally gave out . I followed the doomsayers and left lead acid in to start my 6.354 Perkins diesel. When I tossed the lead and went wholly LFP what a difference . The starting voltage did not sag so it gave more power to the starter and a lot less amps. Edited 2022-02-13 07:43 by bob.steel |
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| bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
200Ah LFP @12v = $780 on Ebay delivered Australia wide free.Same in the States and I think they have a warehouse in Europe too. What does a 200Ah lead acid equivalent forklift battery cost? One outlasts the other by 4 times. No corrosion,no voltage sag,less weight. Edited 2022-02-13 07:54 by bob.steel |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I don't think they make a 200Ah fork lift battery. The smallest fork lift cells I am aware of are around 340Ah. I believe the cost of those is around $2,500 for 24 cells (48v) delivered, the last time I looked. If we refer all this back to a 12v battery: Six of those 2v lead fork lift cells (12v) might be about $625 for 340Ah. That works out to $1.83 per Ah (at 12v) For your 200Ah LFP @ 12v = $780 That works out to $3.90 per Ah That is actually very good. Winstons are advertised at $1.85 per amp hour per cell. At 12v four cells would be required. So for Winstons $7.40 per AH (at 12v) The whole thing revolves around expected lifetime. Lead acids generally are expected to gradually lose capacity, although scrupulously and professionally maintained lead acid telephone exchange batteries have proven to last for fifty years or more. If a home solar battery is hugely oversized, it can lose a very great deal of its initial rated capacity and still be perfectly usable. While Lithium is a very much nicer battery in so very many ways, assuming its going to be totally reliable for ten or twenty years may be too optimistic. If you read all the limitations, which if exceeded only once can lead to permanent damage if not outright failure is rather a worry. I have had three cells go total dead short one by one over three years. Coming up to year four now, and another cell could fail at any moment without warning. That gets expensive... Lead is far more rugged and will usually recover from an infrequent accident if its caught in time. Lithium is far more fragile. The cells seem to be either perfect or totally dead, with nothing in between, at least that has been my own personal experience. How can one cell suddenly go dead short in a series string of thirty ? If it was through abuse, you would expect all thirty to suffer in a similar way. My cells have never been thrashed or abused, but they keep dying suddenly one at a time and without warning. Edited 2022-02-13 09:49 by Warpspeed Cheers, Tony. |
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| Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
Used at 30% lead acid does last. I can use my LFP batteries down to 10 volts on a 12 volt battery so useable range is about 13.6 volts to 11 volts . On a graph that represents about 85 to 90 % of their capacity Yes, Correct but this and the marketing is always pointed to 12v systems for camping, power tools and some other equipment, going flat is not a big issue, as in camping, 4wd trips the 12v battery would be running fridges and accessories for however long, if it is flat by say 4:00AM (don't annoy other campers) just start the 4wd of geny in the morning and charge it abit. This marketing is why people get a prickly cactus up there bum. Most inverters low voltage cut off is 11v some 10.5 per 12v battery, 44V cut off for a 48v system, any capacity left in a battery below that you Don't get. For an offgrid purpose the advertising of being able to run them to 90% DOD is Wrong, you should not get near that low and should avoid doing so, you need some headroom for bad weather, same for any off grid battery storage. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
On 90 % DOD . No problem taking them down there if you go camping once a month or twice a year . The batteries won't notice it . Taking them daily down there is expected to halve their lifetime . So only 2500 cycles instead of 5000. That's still about 7 1/2 years if done daily.(And those results have been done and proved) |
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| bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
Its to do with whatever the previous use was . Do they show any voltage at all? Try the dendrite treatment ,40 volts as high a current as you can put out and 5 half second pulses of only. Then put on a charger /lab supply with 3.65v set volts and current down at about 1 amp and leave.See what you have in 24 hours.If its a dendrite short they show some voltage because there is some plate volume active either side but if you have left them too long they can completely discharge. Overcharge_Overdischarge of LiFePo4 cells (1).pdf Its heavy going and only looks at 18650 cells but the chemistry is identical in all cells up to 320Ah. Edited 2022-02-14 20:11 by bob.steel |
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| Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
Bob, I have a 4048HS (since 2015 one easy repair but still going) and A 5048MS Acquired later, I know the inverters, I have run lithium (off grid) for over 5 years, Yes you could take them down to 90% DOD, in a properly sized system it should not get down that far, certainly not on a daily basis, sadly people are sold the idea that they can get away with an under size battery, and some off grid attempts have failed horribly. I see you had 100Ah and have upgraded to 300Ah, much better, no worries about DOD. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
Yes what I have is a MPP HV2 5048 same as this .They recommended a 300Ah battery but I didn't want to commit that much until I checked it out. Home MPPSolar System really happy with it Edited 2022-02-15 13:01 by bob.steel |
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