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Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 12:45am 10 Jun 2021
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I'd like to set up a Diesel engine to provide heat and power for the house ( cogen). Biggest obstacle I can see is making it all quiet enough to be placed near the house and be able to run it without driving myself or the neighbours Crazy.
Exhaust and intake noise I don't see as being hard to get around but I am concerned with suppressing the inherent mechanical clatter of the Chinah watercooled engines I will probably use in the absence of being unable to find a decent slow speed engine like a Lister.... which would still have to be housed for sound reduction anyway.
I have not determined If I'll just do a box or a small garden shed as yet ( or maybe both) but Was wondering if anyone has done anything similar and what they used for sound deadening? I'll be looking at a footprint around 1x2M Minimum at this stage but will depend on the engine- motor combo I go with. So cold and Crappy here today I'm thinking 5 Hp motor and generating 3 Kw is going to be a minimum.
I have looked on fleabay and the sound proofing offerings there are both unknown in effectiveness and not cheap at all in the qty I would need it.
Wondering if something like common insulation batts could be used or if anyone knows of any other easy to get, economical material that would be effective?
Solar Mike Guru Joined: 08/02/2015 Location: New ZealandPosts: 1122
Posted: 04:55am 10 Jun 2021
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Walls made from packed earth absorb sound quite well.
Mike
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961
Posted: 05:06am 10 Jun 2021
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I have seen a sound proof room for engine testing, had very thick foam attached to the walls and ceiling, all of it cone shaped to absorb all the noise without reflecting sound back. Some portable gensets also use the same idea, the foam lining looks to be around 50mm thick and kind of looks like those cardboard egg containers, dimples in the foam.
Some insulation should work to deaden sound, an easy experiment would be to find small amount of insulation materiel, pack it around inside an appropriate size box with the lid insulated as well, to test it out, shove a electric car horn in there and give it a BLAST, If the neighbours don't come out swearing, it must be ok. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 07:58am 10 Jun 2021
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strategy for keeping sound in is absorbtion. Strategy for keeping sound out is reflection.
Aaron is quite right....
So, build a very solid enclosure around your put-put and line it with very thick fiberglass insulation bats held in place with chicken wire.
Use heavy dense material for your enclosure. Brick or breeze blocks would be ideal, but very extra thick fibro cement sheets might work. Pour a solid cement slab roof if you possibly can. Mount your put-put on very soft springy engine mounts, a lot of very annoying low frequency vibration can travel through the ground.
The inside of your enclosure is going to get very hot indeed, and will need a lot of ventilation, and that will also let the sound out. So some special treatment there.
Probably the easiest would be a pair of those 100mm bilge blowers. One blowing air in, the other pulling air out. A 100 mm hole will not let much sound escape, a much larger hole definitely will. For ultimate silence add some considerable duct length to each bilge blower.
You are quite right, mechanical clatter from the engine itself can be the loudest source, and only a brute force sound proof enclosure is going to work.
If you can feed the exhaust down a storm water drain,that works really well. Multiple sound exits will really confuse the neighbors trying to locate the sound source Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 09:19am 10 Jun 2021
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I did some research today which was as usual, quite interesting.
It seems the egg crate foam is OK, especially indoors with reflected sound but the thick insulation batts as Tony mentions are the best for things that need sound absorption. As it turns Out, I was looking at a very good solution just the other day, the earth wool batts at Bunnys. I was looking for them for solar panel heater backing but looked at some tests of the things and they actually market a type specifically for sound insulation.
Doing a brick enclosure is a good one but where I would have to put that would mean complications with other things so I was thinking to basicly make it portable.... at the moment. I had thought of Fibre board for the enclosure but was not sure if being stiff, hard and a sheet would cause it to amplify the sound that made it through. Would be perfect for outdoors though.
The engine mounts would be a given and I have some very soft mounts up the back for the purpose which are actually gearbox mounts. They may not be stiff enough even with 6 of them and they flex and distort a lot even with a little 3 Hp Diesel on them.
I was wondering about the airflow. As I would definitely be using a water cooled engine, I was thinking I should only need an air inlet. The engine should not even need any cooling air, only the Motor/ generator. I thought If I had an inlet that side, the engine could consume the air coming in so it would be a one way flow over the motor and into the engine. Not worried about the engine running hot, the challenge will be not to run it too cold and sucking in warmed air will only help the job for which I want it. Another life time ago I have a very tweaked V8 that was a real sleeper. Even had stock looking wheels with hubcaps although the were wider and no giveaway what was under the bonnet. I had a terrible time trying to keep that thing cool. Put a bunch of radiators in it with little effect. Looking at it one day I got a brain wave and put a coll air intake on the thing. Dropped the engine temps by almost 20C. ( had long ago given up on thermostats and flow restrictors).
When I looked at the airflow, I could see the hot air came out the radiator and straight back in the engine in a loop. That thing was sucking enough air and making enough heat that feeding it cold air made the biggest difference of everything I tried and cured the problem. Cold air intakes are a standard thing now but not as well understood back then.
Having run similar setups before, the motor/generators run very cool like this as IMAG's because they are essentially under driven. I could set up with just an inlet and see how the temps went and add more cooling ports if need be.
I also was reminded again today of baffling any openings. Saw a vid where they showed the sound coming through a 4" opening and then the reduction, using the material I have in mind, with the opening covered with a piece over the opening so the air had to flow in a bend and the opening was opposite the insulation material and the air ingress about 500mm down the insulated pathway. Quite a significant reduction but I have seen this before and knew of that and was in the mental plans.
I was wondering about using some PVC Pipe wrapped for an Inlet/ outlet if needed to make construction easier. Would also be very easy to do a double bend with that which should help with any echo from the pipe.
People always seem to think of exhaust as the main noise make with a small engine but I have found most, petrol and diesel, are pretty good. An easy test is to hold a thick wad of material over the outlet while the engine is running briefly which eliminates all exhaust sound and see how much noise reduction there is. I have not often found it to be significant or a solution in itself.
On small diesels, often the intake is far louder than the exhaust. I have seen people fit Mufflers to the intake with the air filter on the end of those which isn't a bad Idea. Car air filter boxes also tend to be pretty good at shutting them up. Have one on my Lister Jack hammer and it shut it tight up.
With the engine I'm thinking to use, I might get away with the stock intake as it will be shrouded anyway. Mechanical Clatter far and away is the loudest noise and nothing can be done to prevent it like with exhaust or intake other than suppressing it after it's happened.
The Drain pipe idea is Brilliant Tony! Where I would probably sit the thing there is a drain pit that comes from 3 Directions. One goes right up the back to the neighbour with the dogs that bark every time they see myself or another neighbour in their yard. There is another pit up there to catch their run off that floods our yard in heavy rain.
Shooting the exhaust noise up there might drive the dogs and the neighbour nuts. May not need a muffler of any kind, just some flex pipe to shove in the drain pipe.
The fact I'm going to run this on straight veg oil might also have the pretend dogs in a frenzy wondering where the aroma is coming from. All the dogs I have had love some oil and will follow me around to lick up any spills.
If I could get some oil from a Japanese or hamburger joint so there is plenty of meat smell in it Might give the things something to do looking for another feed than yapping at everyone. I usually curse at the things Loud enough so the neighbour can hear and one of them comes out and brings them in. this would be more fun though.
I am sure the side and closer neighbours would probably put up with more than they should noise wise and say nothing. I'm well in the good books for helping them with little things and every time I ask about something, it's a case of do what you like, no problems. I'm looking after the house closest where I'd put this now while they are away and they carry on like I gave them a kidney or something not just checked the mail and watered the pot plants.
I don't want to annoy them though or be a pain in the arse so this thing has to be no louder than background noise.
Would I be correct to assume that I should get around 33% of the engine power rating ( when flat out) as heat?
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961
Posted: 12:29pm 12 Jun 2021
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Tried me friends Hatz motor, Markon generator, He Didn't run it very often on his house block as it is too noisy for the Neighbour's. Started it and measured with a sound meter (Don't know how precise) and at 1m away it is about 80db, and about 70db at 5m, noisy bastard, its mostly engine clatter and being air cooled ads to it somewhat.
The ambient noise around here was measured at 55db and when the little birds get going (feeding time), at 1m its 110db or more. So if any sort of sound insulation can drop that sound level by about half, that would be pretty good I would think. I thought I was a noisy neighbour around here, starting a big engine with no exhaust manifold on, or mowing with the tractor and a branch grabs the exhaust and rips the muffler off the engine, but no, some other have far exceeded that noise level. Others times, usually winter we get some times that are almost silent and you can here people talking 1.5km away, even further sometimes if someone says f out loud, after hearing that its best to take a little more care with whats being said. For a generator or motor, I would just enclose the entire unit first, see how it goes then tackle the air intake and any other parts if it needs it.Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 04:35pm 12 Jun 2021
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I have a Hatz 1B30 which I think is 4.5 Hp. I'd say its the quietest air-cooled engine I have. The China's are probably the worst a;though I have a Couple of Ruggerinis which are pretty close behind.
If your Hatz is similar to mine and you think that is loud, you would not like the others.... as I don't.
I have 4 water-cooled China Horizontal Cylinder engines and they aren't great either. The sizes of those range from 2.5 Hp to 12 and there is not much difference in sound. The quietest is the Listeroid as it is flat out at 600 RPM but it is very unbalanced and I have not been successful in calming it down. The thing defies all efforts to stop it tearing loose and bouncing away bar being bolted to large concrete slabs.
I'd like to get a genuine lister which are properly balanced but no luck in finding one so far. They would be pretty easy to quiet down being how Slow they run. 6 Hp from a 1.6L engine is pretty understressed.
The other alternative would be to get a Kubota or Yanmar Inline engine. Been looking at the one in my Diesel Mower which is 3 Cyl and about 16 Hp but as Old as that is I am very reluctant to Pull it apart. I only paid $650 for it and it works fine but I haven't seen an engine on it's own for under $1500. If I could buy a decent one at that price I probably would and sell off some of the others but they are hard to find as well.
I think I'll do what you say and enclose everything and then see if I need to do more. I have a couple of small car Mufflers for the exhaust I'll duct out to get the heat away and I was also thinking to get a sound meter so I have a reference as to how much Noise I'm making. If I can get the thing down to the sound of an air con or similar I'll be OK. I can also compare it with the Neighbours yapping dog so I could do what Tony suggested and duct the exhaust up the back and if they dare said a word I could show them the thing was still quieter than their Mongerel animals.
I am going looking for Pallets in the morning. I thought If I could get one of those double pallets with the plywood base that would be a start and I noticed a Pile the other day down at the solar place that looked like they had a Lot of 4x2's in them. Was thinking the normal pallet wood would be good for doing the sides and the lid and I could lap it and do it double thickness which would be good for the sound suppression before I even put the insulation in.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 01:36am 13 Jun 2021
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Best anti vibration engine mounts are air springs, also known as tennis balls. If it has wheels, pneumatic tires with suitably low air pressure make excellent vibration stoppers back into the ground.
I believe an infernal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency of somewhere between 20% to 30%, diesels are best. All the rest is heat pretty evenly divided between the cooling system and total exhaust heat.
I sometimes have visions of building a solid brick cupboard in one corner of my garage, suitably lined with thick fiberglass bats. It could be made quite small, but would require excellent ventilation, the heat buildup would be fearsome.
I could pipe cooling air in and out through suitable blowers, ducting, and mufflers.
Access could be through a massive concrete slab placed on top, which could be raised with a boat winch or light chain block. The same winch could be used to lift the complete engine right out for better access.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 08:32am 13 Jun 2021
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I went out Foraging this afternoon and found some steel frames with plywood bases. They were at the local mower shop and probably had small rideons or garden machinery on them.
Made of 20mm steel square tube they are 1800 long, 800 wide and about 480 High. Plenty of room in every dimension bar height. I didn't even measure any engines till I got home and found I'd really like about 800 High to allow for a thicker base, engine mounts and decent clearance. There were a pile of the things down there that were stacked up so I'll go down again tomorrow and get another then I can extend just weld a couple together to extend the height and cut down the length to what I need. Probably a bit on the wide side but I'm not going to worry about that.
The frames are slightly raised so I can easily get the forks on the tractor underneath to move the thing but I'll probably try to put it on castors as well to make it easy to move on pavement.
I also picked up some nice pallets. Plenty of decent slats in them, only softwood but should be OK for attaching to the frame to make sides and a lid. I'm thinking of having the top lift up and the front fold down for easy access but still to figure best way to go about the front. Might go down and pick up a few more of them tomorrow as well to ensure I have all the slats I need. Will just about be the right height as well, Might get away with not cutting them down at all with a little overlap at the top and bottom.
I have read about capturing the heat from Diesel exhaust and many say it's not worth it. I would try a basic Tube in tube HE design which would be very easy and cheap to fab up and put a Baffle/ Swirler in it. I have long thought these were important in breaking yup boundary layer gasses and during the week saw a vid where somone did tests with and without one. they said in the vid they were a bit reluctant to post their Results as they had a hard time believing the difference themselves but had done the tests many times over and got other people in before they posted the vid but it was pretty straight forward putting one in and not and using the same instruments in the same places but they got a several hundred percent increase in the heat they were able to extract. Makes sense to me. I have looked at this before and its surprising how different the stratification in a gas flow can be.
I wouldn't go overboard on capturing all the exhaust heat but something simple should be worth while. I was also looking at co generation vid and they said that over sizing was a big mistake because when a diesel is not running flat out, there is extra cold air induced which lowers the gas temp. This goes against the idea with many forms of heating where you want a low Differential, in this case with limited capture ability one is better off with the Highest temp differential to make the heat transfer easier.
I'm still in 3 Minds as to how big an engine I'm going to need. I really think this place wants about 10Kw available to heat it properly in the cold. That would mean about a 6 Hp engine to get the heat directly from and to use with the electricity which could be used to run the AC. I sort of have a gap in engine size there between 4 Hp and 12 Hp. The 12's are big buggers and with the suitable Motor, are not going to be light or small. The 5 Hp with the 4 Kw motor would be a lot more compact but Might only do 6 KW of heat. There is a 7.5 Kw 3 Phase motor near me that I could probably get cheap enough and would be good for about 5 Kw electric generation but would also over clock the engines I would want to use.
I have a 10 Hp water-cooled Diesel but that thing has no electric start and I can't even crank the thing over fast enough on it's own to get it to spin through compression. Putting an electric start would not be easy or compact I don't think.
Tony the Tennis ball idea is good but how would one go about locating them? Short Pieces of Pipe to sit them in above and below? Other thing I have seen is sections of car Tyres cut in cross section and made to form a loop. Also seen where a lot of people in asia particularly use sections on the typical 3 hole flywheel pulley mounting on Horizontal Cyl Chiaanh engines as Couplings. One could have a whole load of misalignment with them and anything within about 2" wouldn't make a difference.
Do you really think you'd need a super heavy concrete lid to keep the sound down enough? If you had something with a double layer of the rockwool and maybe some car sound deadener, surely that would be enough and a load cheaper in the end than a concrete slab and probably safer than lifting one too.
Of course you would also need a suitable RSJ overhead with a trolley on it to lift and move the slab out the way and then pull up the motor. Maybe an engine crane would do depending on the slab? I would think the vents are going to be more of a weak point in the sound proofing than the need for a big thick slab.
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 792
Posted: 03:16pm 14 Jun 2021
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Or you could bolt the frame holding the engine, to the underside of the concrete slab ... so that when you pull it up, the engine comes up too.
Build a scissor lift under it and just wind it up.
Course it will cause some issues for being able to disconnect exhaust and inlet fittings perhaps ... but would make servicing easier.
May just have to fit the side brick wall on rollers like a garage door and move it out the way to gain access ... but then you have to get down on your hands and knees to work on it.
I'd be interested to see that video too please Dave, with the view to seeing how to get more of the heat out of my evacuated tubes. Thanks.Cheers, Roger
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 01:15am 15 Jun 2021
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Not sure if I bookmarked it Roger.I'll see if I can find it again. Looked at a lot of related things recently. It is a pretty well known concept though. Gas water heaters have them which they call baffles for exactly the same reason. Air sticks to Surfaces. Like water in heater tank, you get effectively what is called stratification. You can have boiling water on top of the tank and much colder underneath.
Air is the same. You will get a boundary layer sticking to the surface in this case a tube or a pipe that is very hot but the air running up the middle does not mix and stays cold and does not carry the heat from the outer casing away or conversely, the air can be hot in the middle and exiting without giving it's energy up to the walls of the HE and transferring it into the medium be that water or air on the other side.
You need to keep the air swirling and turbulent so the boundary layer is broken up and all the gas has a chance too impart it's energy to where you want. All you would need to do it put some thin twists of metal in your tubes or cut them and flare out little pieces like wings so the air is disturbed. Don't need to be much at all, just create a bath that is rough and induces turbulence in the gas flow.
From ( failing) memory, I believe you have pipes running down the centre of your tubes. My approach would be to pinch off the ends of the tubes ( maybe not all the way, I'd let a small amount of air escape) and then drill some holes along the length of the pipe. You want want enough holes so the total area was not less than the tube diameter and causing a restriction but not so many and high up that no air went to the bottom. I would stagger the holes a bit and the air blowing out onto the surface would pick up the heat from the tube and disturb the rising airflow. I think this would be easier than trying to put in a disruptor if you already have pipes in the tube.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 01:30am 15 Jun 2021
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Went out yesterday and got another steel Rack. With the two of them stacked, I probably have enough headroom for a Lister in there. Also managed to pick up some more Ply and some more pallets.
Not sure which way to go now. Sure be a lot easier to cover this with just ply but If I do it with the pallet slats there may be a bit more soundproofing. and it may also look a bit more decorative than the plain play. Be a hell of a lot quicker and easier with the ply as well.
Went back to bunnys for for screws and things and saw they have the soundproofing insulation in stock. I'll guarantee the fkers won't have it the day I go there to buy it as is always the case but they have it now. From what I can see, it's really no different to the other stuff, just thinker which gives it a Higher R value. I'll wait till I decide the engine I'm going to use and the size of the enclosure as there are 2 Pack sizes the stuff comes in so I'll work out the area and the best size batts I will need. I was going to spray glue and Chicken wire the stuff in place but it would be good to cover it in some sort of foil I think for neatness and so it was less likely to absorb oil or fuel spills. Foil may add some more sound Proofing.
I realised yesterday that the Big motor I have is a 2 speed. That may be handy for gearing as the engines I have use 3 Bolt Pulleys which are hard ( impossible) to get in larger sizes and really too small for the pulleys on the motors which I don't want to make any smaller and have problems with belt slip due to limited contact drive area. It's a big motor though and would be so under driven for the weight and size I'll really have to think about this. I'll look at the 12 Hp Motor and how that will fit in the frame work. That is going to make for one heavy setup there so then I'll have to look at the all up weight and see how portable it's going to be and if the tractor will be able to put it where I want.
So many variations to procrastinate over. It's 90% of the effort in getting anything done for me. :0(
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961
Posted: 08:58am 15 Jun 2021
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The 3 cylinder yanmar diesel motor (16Hp) are a fairly quiet running motor, often used in fridge vans Thermo king and such, units can be found when the van, no longer has a food safe ticket thing.
I like the used pallet idea, that should be easy to work with. Its not uncommon to have a Genset or hydrant booster to be in a concrete box, or something close to it. I saw this under the bunnings car park, When I used to shop at Masters next door......
First time I saw this, there was a lot of soot stains (3 exhaust outlets) before they painted it blue, And initially I assumed it was a set of generators to supply the shopping centre across the road, but now it looks more like hydrant boosters for when the power is out. If you look at the Ventilation on the wall, they look similar to silenced gensets I have seen and not much sound gets out of them, I think that is a frame with many pieces of angle to deflect the sound and still provide plenty of airflow, there is something like that in the shed but I cant find it at the moment.Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 09:54am 15 Jun 2021
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I have seen these occasionally advertised for sale but they always fetch a hefty price. I would like one though.
My father and I have similar size tractors with the same power engines. His is Yanmar powered, Mine is Kubota. Both watercooled of course. We both notice how much louder and more rattly the Yanmar sounds. Mine is sans the engine cover so it' definitely not sound suppression with it. Even at idle the Yanmar makes a Racket. You can easily talk to someone with mine at idle, his is definitely yelling to someone close by. Not exhaust noise, definitely mechanical/ ignition clatter. I would be happy to get either and look for them regularly but it's a distinct difference between the 2 engines of virtually identical HP and configuration.
I did pick up a number of engines that were on fire pumps Some years back. There is a 10 Hp aircooled Yanmar Single I have lined up now. Just need to organise collection with the guy that has it and a friend to try and drag the heavy arse thing into my ute. I thing is is Seized though lack of use but being a 10 Hp, it's worth having a crack at getting going. That one is a freebie to save the guy having it taken to scrap. It still has the pump so that could be real fun If I could find a 2" hose and hook it up to an IBC. Might last a whole 30 Seconds! I think the pump is 4".
If I can get it going I might sell it. one of the farms round here might be interested.
A 16 Hp WC would be good in that I could reduce the Revs and therefore the noise. A lot of people are under the misconception that Diesels have to be run hard. In industry, usually the opposite is true. They are over sized and under worked for longevity.
Power is a Function of RPM and there is a power curve on any engine. If the thing is only run at say 1500 RPM, it will produce x amount of power. If you match the load to that RPM/ Rev range, then you can load the engine up so it is working AT THAT SPEED. They will have decent gas flows though the engine and will come up to decent temp which is unlike revving them higher and putting on a light load for that power output.
The modern engines are all dialed in to whatever power is wanted. Being electronic they simply back the fuel off or turn it up for certain power at whatever RPM and can match that with turbo boost. Nothing to have a 500Hp engine doing 200Hp. The navy for one do this in their smaller ships where the engine has to last the life of the boat because taking one out to replace it is a MAJOR, often end of service, proposition.
I have adapted that to the steel frames I found. Thinking of going back and getting another one or 2 as they would be great to stand Vertically, Clad with fibre board which is not combustible and house a burner in them.
I think the frames will suit the engine/ motor layout better which will be rectangular given the belt drive setup. The frames will be easy to cut down as needed and weld together and be stronger than just a wooden pallet. I'm better with metal than wood and better set up for it as well.
I bet that is it although there may be an emergency generator as well being 3 exhausts. I used to play High rise Baby sitting as a Building manager. One of the properties had 2 sizeable engines in the basement. One was a fire pump, the other a generator. They had block heaters that must have used a shipload of power as the whole room they were in was always hot let alone warm where the other basement areas were always quite chilly. From memory the engines were kept at 40o so if needed, they were able to go from a dead start to instant flat out and would have decent oil flow and not have hard starting problems.
They were fired every month for an hour and run through a test cycle. I think it was every 3 Months someone came in and ran them and certified them.
The engines I have bought from pumps have all had low hours due to only having been test run. Some are only every 6 months I believe. Depends on the building in which they are sited. I was told by a guy I bought several off that they have to be replaced every 10 years regardless of anything else. Unless a building has a fire which is obviously rare, the things are only ever test run but still have to be replaced. If there is a fire and they are used in anger, they still have to be renewed.
One of the buildings I was looking after had an alarm going once in the fire pump room. Turned out the block heater had tripped out and the thing had got too cool. The noise of the alarm and the flashing light made me think there was a fire in there. Nearly went deaf in there looking at the control panel and working out what was wrong. Rang the fire company and they told me what to look for and came out the next day to check it.
The pump engines I got were all aircooled, single cyl engines bar one. The multis tended to be 40 Hp and up WC. The little ones were not in big demand and I got them pretty cheap... which was why I bought them. Some the guy had been advertising for 2 years and my lowball offer was the only one he got. I think the 3rd one I got he rang me and said Come and get it, I know if you don't buy it the thing will only be scrap... so I went and picked it up to add to the collection of my diesel ornaments.
The Multis sold OK and usually went complete with the pump as people used them on fire/water trucks and for irrigation. I don't remember seeing any little Multi Yanmar/ Kubota sizes on these. I do have a 30 Hp Aircooled Ruggerini Twin I bought for $200. I think that one has about 23 Hours on it. Might be less. Lovely little engine and would be perfect if it were not air cooled. Would be perfect in a little farm buggy or a cross kart or something.
Came with a remote control start box with gauges and low oil pressure warnings and over temp. Not sure the thing has shutdowns though. Spose if there is a fire the last thing they want is the Pump engine to shut down. If it destroys itself then whatever extra minutes they can get out of the thing before it does is probably valuable. Only thing it does not have is a muffler. that was cut off when Uninstalled but still has a header flange from the manifold and a bit of pipe that could be welded to.
If a building is burning down or they need emergency power, you'd think the last concern would be how much noise the engine driving the Pump/ genny is making. I spose that's more for the testing which is probably all the engine will ever do.
I got to see the gennys in a data backup centre once. A v16 and 2x V12's. They had several fuel tanks which amounted to 4000L and there was another tank under the car park Of similar size that the fuel could be transferred from. They were BIG engines and the alternators were monsters as well. I can't remember what the output was now but suffice to say enough to literally power a few of the surrounding suburbs. The maintence guy told me their test runs which were monthly used about $800 worth of fuel at a time and that was probably around 7 years ago.
Might just have another look for some engines with this on my mind.... :0)
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 792
Posted: 03:07pm 16 Jun 2021
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I'd forgotten to reply to these comments. Thanks Dave.
I had certainly considered drilling some holes in the down tubes to try and 'stir up' or disrupt the air at the inner glass surface ... but hadn't thought to close off the end a little to make sure plenty gets pushed through those holes ... great idea.
It's something I had been going to try for a while.
And it might be worthwhile making those holes mostly on the top (sunny) side ... because that inner surface is always much hotter than the opposite side ... maybe 20-30% hotter.
The other thought I'd had was to try the spiral return path to make the air spend more time travelling back up the tubes ... but I couldn't think of an easy way to do that ... at least not to do the 60 I am going to need!
But the other night the idea came to me and I wondered if I bought some cheap expandable spring curtain wire ... and anchor it at the top and wind a couple turns around the tube to the bottom. It would slow the air down and hopefully pick up more of the heat. And it's only $5 for 5 meters from Bunnos.
The plastic may break down fairly quickly in the heat ... but if it was successful, maybe I could find some without plastic to do the job.
It won't alter my overall build ... but will change the fine detail a bit.
Thanks for the suggestions.Cheers, Roger
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:10pm 16 Jun 2021
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I bought a single cylinder 12Hp air cooled Wisconsin generator ($50 not going no carburetor) but the alternator was also stuffed. This was direct coupled and originally ran at 3,000 rpm, and was very noisy.
So what I did was hook it up to a tradmill motor with pulley drive, and now only run the Wisconsin at 1,000 rpm. That made a huge difference to the noise level, but its probably now only about 1.5Hp to 2Hp at that speed.
That is fine, 100v at around 8-10 amps dc is all I really need for slow charging a battery. Its only a 50Ah battery anyway.
This now also has a 60 amp car alternator, electric start, and a proper ignition system. Just need to get a natural gas carburetor for it, but it runs fine now on petrol.
Its really all a pile of recycled junk, and cost almost nothing to put together, but pretty happy with how its all turned out.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 11:23pm 16 Jun 2021
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The Wisconcin's are not a bad engine. I rebuilt one the year before last for a Ditchwitch my mate let run out of oil. I was surprised I didn't have any trouble getting parts for the thing. Pretty beefy engine for it's output ( think his was an 18 from memory) and decently made... unlike some of the other US brands. Had real Bearings unlike some which run in the rod or block itself which is just aluminium. the Crank polished up ok and I just honed the bore and Filed back some oversize rings to fit. Thing runs better than when mate got is as it wasn't too new then anyway.
and now only run the Wisconsin at 1,000 rpm. That made a huge difference to the noise level, but its probably now only about 1.5Hp to 2Hp at that speed.
Would also make a huge difference to the longevity of the engine as well. One reason I like Diesels, most of them are flat out at 2200 RPM even though they sometimes sound as fast as a petrol but they have loads of torque and you can slow them down so they are quieter and less grating on the nerves. The lister is flat out at 600 Rpm and is a pleasant sound. Slow that down and it's like listening to a big clock ticking away.
As I sit here writing this, the Poo truck is over the road sucking out their Bog Tank as they come every Thursday, Usually before 7 am. There is a Pump on that thing that makes an ungodly racket especially the time when he normally comes, screaming away for about 20-30 Min and it is so damn noisy the whole road can hear it. Lucky us to be right across the road from it!
Electric means you can start the thing without having to go out to it and heave the thing over. A Very worthwhile feature. Even if they need Choke to start, you can always put on a solenoid.
Did you make your own ignition or adapt something from a Car?
I was watching some Vids on EFI kits for small engines the other day. Very interesting but still seem to require a decent amount of fabrication as they are all universal and it would sure help to have some knowledge of Tuning these systems in the fuel and Ignition maps. It seems the cheap ones are a bit limited in function for any sort of vehicular use but on a stationary/ more or less constant load setup, they would be great. You could dial the things in to perfection at certain engine speeds quite easily. The complication comes as always with different rev ranges and loadings.
I saw a thread on another forum a while back about a guy that converted a lister To LPG as he lives very remotely and solar did most of the heavy lifting for him but when he wanted to weld or do other high drain work, he fired up the engine. He tried a lot of things but eventually got a common run of the Mill IMPCO carburettor off a forklift I think it was. A standard small vehicular gas carb anyway.
One problem with the lister was it being a large capacity single Cylinder, the pulsing played havoc with a lot of other things he tried but the Impco for whatever reason didn't bat an eyelid. He thought he'd have a lot of mucking round to get it right if it could work but it was a matter of hook the thing up and it ran perfect straight off and he tweaked the mixture a bit and that was the end of it.
I think they work something like the old SU's that were self limiting in the airflow so you could put a 1 3/4" Carb on a lawnmower and it would work without bogging down because the airflow was always what the engine needed and never too much.
Other than that the Fleabay Carbs might be OK for what you need.
Always the most rewarding and satisfying way of doing things in my book. Not a lot of skill factor in just buying something but making something and adapting it to do a job needs skill and smarts and thats something money can't buy and separates the men from the posers. :0)
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:54am 17 Jun 2021
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It was originally like a big lawnmower engine with a magneto built into the flywheel in the usual way. Now that it has an alternator, a 12v battery, starter and flex plate (off a 6cyl Ford falcon). I just connected the original magneto points up to a Bosch electronic igniter module, and a car ignition coil. It now starts much more easily with a much fatter spark, and runs very well.
Just turn the ignition key, and away it goes. Sure beats pulling on a bloody string.Cheers, Tony.
johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282
Posted: 09:49pm 17 Jun 2021
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Warpspeed quoted,
I just connected the original magneto points up to a Bosch electronic igniter module, and a car ignition coil. What model bosch electronic module did you use?
Back in the early (1960's) we just used the original points and capacitor(condensor) and fitted a battery and car ignition coil.
The capacitor is important as it stops arcing of the points when they open ,and stores the engergy to help the initial field build up in the coil when the points shut again
Cheers johnjohnmc
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 10:58pm 17 Jun 2021
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I need to fit a starter to one of my big Chinaahh Diesels. Not going to be an easy job on that engine though. I don't know how anyone could Possibly crank start that beast. I have an Old Kubota with a ring gear flywheel and a starter about the same size HP but pretty sure the Chynaah diesels are based on the Yanmar engines.
Back in my ( much) younger days, I used to do a lot of small engine repair before and after work for extra Income. I used to set the points on the engines by taking the plug out and Spinning the flywheel and hanging on to the HT Lead. You could always tell by the belt you got where you were at. The best gap was never the one specified, if I had the specs for that engine anyway. Maybe wear or the crudeness of the system saw to that.
On engines that had a Timing plate, I used to file out the holes so I could give them a bit more advance. That used to wake them up particularly the Victa 2 Strokes.
Later on the little electronic Modules came along that replaced the points and condensor. You can still get them to retro fit and they work Very will indeed and are totally Maintenance free. I used to just put them in as part of the rebuild. They weren't much more than what the points and condensor cost but made the engines a lot more reliable and the customers never brought them back for Ignition troubles.
I have often thought of getting a Petrol engine and an injection pump and injector off a small Diesel and trying to get a petrol engine to run on diesel. Would want to Shave the head and get the compression up and need a cam that the injection pump could run off. I think it would work and as long as the engines weren't flogged too hard, should last OK.
The gokart guys hot the 5 Hp Chynaah engines up and get 20HP plus out of them on stock crank and bearings and only change the piston to match the Lightened flywheels for more revs so I think they would survive fine at rated power on Diesel.
I might try and Drag my 12 Hp engine out today and see how it fits up in the racking I got. If that's OK I'll get out the big motor and try that then see how heavy it's all going to be. I remembered there may be a 5 Hp up Diesel up there but can't remember if it's electric. Actually, Now I think of it, I believe it is but I seem to recall it's also an air cooled. Bugger. Spotted it buried the other day while Digging around. That will take some exhumation. Also found an 8 Hp but that's Air cooled as well.
Think I should sell some of these and put the money towards an inline Kubota. My mate has one he was going to sell me from a Crane he just replaced but there is something wrong with it even the diesel mechanic can't fix in the injection pump. Another pump is akin in cost to a used engine.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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out loud, after hearing that its best to take a little more care with whats being said. 
