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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Soundproofing and engine enclosure
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| Warpspeed Guru  Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Quite right John. The points in the Wisconsin look rather frail, and not sure where I could get replacements if ever needed. Switching many amps directly through an ignition coil is rather different to shorting out the original wimpy magneto inductor, and I did not want to create any long term reliability problems with the points. But still desired a really fat spark for starting. Another potential issue, is that if the ignition power is accidentally left turned on with the engine stopped (or stalled), if the points are closed, the whole mess might easily cook itself to death over a long period. I used a Bosch type 137 igniter module driving a Falcon XF six cylinder ignition coil. This particular coil is renowned for having an especially high energy output. It also matches the dwell angle and max current limit values set within the Bosch 137 module. These modules have some really nice features. There is a current limit that works especially well during engine cranking or at very low rpm with low battery voltage. Also there is a timeout feature. If the engine ever stops with the points closed, power to the coil completely shuts off after about three seconds. All very nice, but the trigger input to this module usually comes from some kind of reluctor or Hall sensor circuit, and is inverted from what you normally get with direct connection to ignition points. So the points are fed through a 220R wire wound resistor from +12v and that drives the gate of a small N channel mosfet. The drain of the mosfet goes into the 137 module, there being a suitable pullup resistor inside the module. I did notice on my oscilloscope that there was significant points bounce even at 1,000 rpm. Opening is clean, but closing it bounces. That probably does not matter, but I put back the original 0.47uF capacitor that was originally across the points, and I then had a nice clean square wave from the points. Its a very potent ignition and generated enough EMI to cause the LED light in my garage to flicker. That was completely cured by placing a 25 ohm 20 watt wire wound resistor between the ignition coil and the spark plug. The small hole in one end the resistor connection bolts to the top of the spark plug. Its a lot of trouble to go to, but ignition problems on small engines can be a major source of trouble and frustration unless its all thoroughly thought through. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
What I did on the Wisconsin was fit a second heavy flywheel to the output shaft of the engine. It really needs the extra flywheel mass at only 1,000 rpm, but it also gave me something to bolt an automatic transmission flex plate onto. The business end of the engine block also had some convenient threaded bosses and holes to which I could bolt my starter motor and alternator. The original flywheel and cooling blower at he other end, with its evil rope start, does not offer much in the way of solid attachment points. Its just a light sheetmetal cover for the cooling blower to direct air around the barrel and cylinder head.  Cheers, Tony. |
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
Fly wheel friction starter, is probably a necessity when the motor will be in a confined space sound proof enclosure etc. Seen a few of them used at the old engine shows, need to make one myself one day to start the big old twin flywheel engine.  Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Another advantage of electric start is that I removed the original centrifugal decompression mechanism. Starts much better on full compression, but you would need to be Superman to use rope start on full compression. Inertia starters were the traditional method, but its still a bit too much like hard work for my liking. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Very Nice setup Tony! Never seen a taper lock pulley on an alternator before. Thats a great idea. I have a strong preference for the internal fan alts because I have done every torture test I can think to the things and never been able to break one. They have 2 fans, one for the windings and one for the electronics cooling. So looking at the pic, did you sandwich the flexplate and Flywheel on with the Taper lock and I assume make up bushings to locate them with the engine keyway?? I see we use the same idea and method for belt tensioning. The Turnbuckles work Great though I have to wire the ones I use to stop them coming loose. I have also used Unistrut to mount engines on and fix the alternator and I have put a car scissor jack between the 2 to tension up the belt. That works as well. The problem with the engine I have is the drive is off the flywheel rather than a conventional Shaft. This is pretty much the layout. Chinaah Diesel The other side is where the crank goes in for when Hercules or some big Muther of a gorilla I don't want to get off side wants to spin it up. I can't get it to turn fast enough on it's own let alone with the alt Connected to get it through compression when I drop the valve but I never have any trouble starting 18 Hp Petrol Engines with no decompressor and this one is only a 10hp I think. Crank Side. I have looked for stub shafts to fit the flywheel bolt holes but they all seem to be custom made and cost a Bomb. The few I have seen would cost several times what I would get for the engine. My brother in law did me a stub shaft but didn't allow a hollow for the crank nut and it does not work well trying to pack it out with spacers. He was going to re do it for me, 18 Months ago. Far as I have been able to find, they don't make different size pulleys for these engines either which is a pain. Might be easier to get rid of it but I know they aren't in huge demand and not having electric probably wouldn't suit anyone that knows about these things either. I got it with a 10 Kw 3 phase gen head and I have other engines with electric I can swap this one out with but the non electric is brand new so shame to get rid of it. I used to start the lister race car style with a starter motor with a Lovejoy type coupling on the end that met with the other side on the engine shaft. Had a long arm on one side that braced the starter torque so the thing didn't snap your wrists. The starter was an old one of some Pommie car I got going but was shot and those starters with the protruding shaft and spring arrangement on the end are hard to find now. I'll try and do the Cogen setup first, maybe with the little engine to make it easier and then apply whatever I am sure to learn to the bigger setup. Might go get some more of those frames this weekend while the getting is good. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The Wisconsin has a reasonably long section of one inch parallel shaft with a taper on the end. The original 230v alternator shaft had an internal taper to jam it solidly to the end of the crankshaft as a very solid extension, with a very long draw bolt to keep it all up tight. There was then just a pretty small ball bearing at the extreme end of the alternator shaft. Cheap and simple, but it seemed to work.  That is a two groove nine inch pulley, and much heavier than the original Wisconsin flywheel that is still there at the other end of the crank. The taper lock fitting grabs pretty tight, I did not bother to take the crank out to cut a suitable keyway, although I will if the engine ever has to come to pieces. Looking at the picture of your diesel, the flywheel should come off if you remove the big nut. Then set it up in a lathe along with a suitable flex plate so it all runs true. Then re drill the three holes in the bosses right through both flywheel and flex plate. Bolt it all together, problem solved. If you are lucky there may be a means of spigoting the flex plate onto the flywheel at the back. I did not bother, just three 6mm bolts, and the flex plate runs within just a very few thousandths of both eccentricity and run out. The starter can then project outwards like a sore thumb. For correct rotation you will need a starter off something that has the starter fitted on the engine side of the original bellhousing. My long term goal is for fully automatic startup and shut down depending on solar battery voltage. Just enough to keep the battery bouncing off some minimum allowable voltage. If its totally silent, it does not matter if it decides to start up at 3Am. Edited 2021-06-18 14:56 by Warpspeed Cheers, Tony. |
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| johnmc Senior Member  Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
A lot of modern starter motors have a epicycle reduction buit into the starter motor. probably 5:1 reduction and the flywheel ring gear to starter pinion is about 10:1. Also as Warpspeed said the auto flex plate should be easier to mount. These starter motors should have no trouble starting most stationary engines These modern reduction starter motors really made the 6354 perkins diesel start better. cheers john johnmc |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Smart looking motor setup you have there Tony. cheers john johnmc |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Its not finished yet, but pretty happy with progress so far. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
I found what I need. Not terribly cheap but would be a factory setup. Starter Kit. I don't know whether it's worth emailing them and asking for a sensible shipping price but what they want is Ludicrous as is a lot of things I'd otherwise be interested in on that site. I got the big 12 Hp Single Cyl Kubota out today. Measures roughly with Min clearance about 700 High by 900 Long. Width is about 500. With the big Motor, the frames wouldn't need much cutting down although cutting and rejoining is the same no matter if it's a little or a lot. Also Had the penny drop today something I completely missed... The Little watercooled Is crank start and the little electric start is air cooled. Aggghhh! I doubt I would be lucky enough for the starter off the aircooled to suit the watercooled. I think I will just get rid of them all and buy a Kubota and be done with it. All I'll need then is a stub shaft plate and they are all made to SAE sizes so no problem. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
That ring gear on the flywheel is probably a standard replacement part off something or other. The tooth pitch is almost always pretty much standard, so finding a geared starter, as that one appears to be, should not be difficult either. Making a home brew mounting bracket for the starter just requires a bit of creativity. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
I had a look at the aircooled Small engine this morning with electric start and the water-cooled without. They look quite Different in many ways despite similar Size. The WC is rated at 4. 5 HP @ 2200 Rpm, the air cooled is 5 Hp @ 3000 which is pretty fast for these engines. I couldn't see the engine size very well as the AC was still half buried. One thing I have noticed is the watercooled engines tend to have the flywheel rim exposed which is handy to drive a Micro groove belt from. Very handy with Car alternators as you can get the speed up closet to that which they see on vehicles and will do good amps at low engine revs which is always good. The aircooleds tend to have very close shrouding that comes off at an angle and narrow enough to make using the flywheel for drive impractical. I think I'll look at setting up the small system. I might over build the enclosure though so as I can fit the big engine and motor if I decide later. I found a 7.5 Kw gen head for sale and an old Vertical Diesel engine not too far away up the coast. If the planets aligned and I got them both would be OK although probably wouldn't use them together as the engine is only 6 HP. Waiting on the seller of the gen head to get back to me with answers to my questions. I have learned to ask a lot when buying stuff like this off the net through coming home with too many things that were not as described or implied. There is not much on the net really about enclosing and sound proofing engines. What there is tends to amount to putting a muffler on a petrol generator or putting it in an enclosure that would not do a lot to get the sound levels to where the thing could be run all day would WOULD do a lot to cook the thing. Still looking for an inline but not much about and what is out there is priced to kill. I saw a wrecked mower couple of months ago and I was so tempted although not feeling like doing anything at the time so I didn't bother. Wish I had now. Could have used the Hydraulics as well. I can definitely see an air-cooled engine sale coming up. |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
My Sound proofing engines in boats, to be reasonably effective need the following Engine needs to be as totally sealed as possible, I used 3mm all welded aluminium lined with 50mm of insul wool, then cover the insulwool with light gauge aluminium sheet, this is all covered with carpet or mat. The exhaust manifold and muffler is water cooled ,the water cooling helps deaden exhaust noise by stopping the expansion of the exhaust gases . The engine air air intake need a silencer ( large air filter silencer), inlet needs to have baffles in the air path so that engine noise can not reflect up the air intake ducting . The air ducting is also covered with inslating material. If you have a water storage dam you could use the water to cool your genset or set up a external radiator. I am not aware of any easy way to insulate noise except with large $$$$$$$$$ cheers john johnmc |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Interesting. The insulwool was what I was going to use. The specific soundproofing one they have is 90 MM. You have effectively 4 Layers with everything the way you do it which should provide a lot of deadening. I actually saved some Old hall runners this week with this job in mind. The carpet is still very good, just they have faded a lot from the sun coming through the windows. I was thinking of that on the bottom of the enclosure as I thought compressing the Insul wool may destroy a lot of it's properties where the carpet is quite heavy so may be worth while still. I was going to try the 90mm and some 12MM Ply and see how that went. I was in K-mart yesterday with the mrs and noticed these Yoga mat things. They are a rubber foam with a harder backing so I took an interest in these as a covering for the Insulwool to protect and hold that. I forget the size of the things, forgot to take a pic of the label but they were $7.50 and 4 of the things should be more than enough for what I need. The only other thing that I know that is aluminiumised is the roof insulation, Sisalation. Seems to in roof appropriate size rolls and is not cheap. If I find the earthwool/ Ply/ foam is not sufficient, I have collected a stack of pallets with nice looking timber I was going to do a lap and cap arrangement with add another layer of sound absorption/ suppression and use that as an aesthetic compliment to the enclosure. Cost nothing and I know the Mrs likes that look so Triple ticks there. I was thinking to do a simple Tube in tube type HE design for the exhaust. Was dubious as to the amount of heat gain but from what you say could be worth it from the cooling aspect alone. Wrapping the Muffler was something I had not considered. I have collected a Number of muffler from cars for my engines. People tend to think there is loads of heat in exhaust but from past experiments, not as much as one would think and you have to go about capturing it the right way. The fallback of the internet, wrapping a tube in copper pipe is completely useless in practice. I have read a lot of conflicting things on the net about engine silencing and some people seem to go way overboard. My thought and approach to the problem is to reduce gas speed. Pumping the exhaust from a small engine into a car size Muffler has worked well for me because the larger the area a fluid enters, the slower it passes. With a single cylinder engine, the exhaust pulses are wide enough apart that the outlet can be " Tuned" with a small outlet so the gas bleeds down constantly out the exhaust rather than hitting the atmosphere in pulses. I Imagine this will also be beneficial for extracting the thermal energy. As I mentioned at the outset, In my experience the exhaust noise is easy, it's the mechanical clatter that's the greater obstacle hence the enclosure. I imagine with boats, as the engines tend to be hard mounted, there is also a consideration to be made with drumming through the hull and rails. I have noticed on my brother in laws Battle ships, There is loads of soundproofing in the engine room but no rubber or bitumen mats on the fibreglass bottom or sides. Given the way the things drum right though the craft from the transmission as well, Rubber mountings would be good if they weren't impractical. I have also found on Diesels that intake noise can be as much as exhaust. I have Run my 4WD round the block without the air Filer or box and the thing sounds like a combination of a Monster roaring and the worlds largest hoover on the prowl to ingest small Children. Non turblow the little engines tend to be quite throaty. My plan there is to get a new, clean Muffler and stick the airbox from a car on the end of that. All the car air intakes now tend to have all sorts of weird and wonderful little appendages to tune out the harmonics at Different Revs and load points. Not much good on a totally different engine but the air boxes themselves are effective at Noise dampening. The setup will also have Water injection fitted before the engine. Won't do anything for noise but I intend to run the engine on Veg oil and the WI keeps them totaly clean and deposit free. I have run it for a lot of years on my Veg Vehicles and done everything you are supposed not to with veg and never had any of the problems the people that follow all the rules do. Plus it is very good for engine cooling although that may be somewhat counter productive in this application although I imagine the heat has to re emerge somewhere. The idea of the setup this is for is a cogeneration application. I want to burn the fuel to make heat for the house and get the electricity as a bonus which I can also feed back to the AC or other heater to increase the overall efficiency. I'm thinking I'll run the water through a Car Cabin heater core with a fan and then into a hot water tank. Given that will be a fixed load I can use the power from the induction motor I play to use as a generator to the heating element as an option and when I don't need the heat ( fan could be thermostatically controlled) The water can continue to the water tank and the heat can be stored like that. I have been thinking that this way, I could run the engine all day which will reduce the level of quite it has to be and then with a 400L water heater or 2, I will have enough stored energy for the night and just have to run a small Circ pump of about 80W. $00L of water with a 75C temp rise is 33 Kwh of heat which isn't bad But I would need twice that for my place overnight going by the heat I am pumping in now. I think I can do this Cost effectively. As far as I can see, the earthwool will be the big expense but it's only about $75 so easily recoverable from an ROI standpoint. So far I am doing pretty well with gathering materials for the project from factory rubbish piles. Thanks for the info, helpful and things to keep in mind. |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
During the winter I have a 300 litre well insulated hot water unit that we heat with our slow combustion stove which is used for most of the cooking . From the hot water unit we circulate water through a radiator (out of a commercial fridge unit) this with the help of the AC unit keeps most of the house living area warm If their is little sun for the solar panels we add more wood to the stove. So it will be possible to use the excess heat from the genset to heat a large storage of hotwater. My boat had the main engine rubber mounted (with in safety keeper) with a 2 U/J connected to a thrustblock then to the propshaft. cheers john johnmc |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Carpet on the ground will be o/k, but not really necessary. If you spill oil or fuel on carpet, its not going to go away. As long as the walls and the ceiling absorb sound instead of reflecting it, it will be fine. The exhaust pipe will vibrate and transmit sound. If you can bury some or all of it, that will help too. How about digging a pit to put the muffler in, and place a concrete slab on top.... Cheers, Tony. |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Isolate the vibrations,with with large rubber radiator hose connected to the water cooled exhaust outlet. AS warpspeed said bury the exhaust in a pit,with a baffled vertical exhaust pipe and a rain excluder on top. I forget to add the engine oil was always water cooled . Cheers john johnmc |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
That would have made a huge Difference and been far more pleasant. My Harley engine is hard mounted to the frame. I have ridden similar models that the only difference is Rubber mounted engine and Different forks/ Styling and the difference is significant. You can actually feel the engine moving on the mounts and see it if you look at it. Wouldn't say mine is unpleasant, just different and the other one does feel smoother. Would be hopeless to hard mount one of these little Diesel engines. Just turn the whole enclosure into a drum regardless of the sound deadening. The inline Multis are much smother although still need rubber mounting. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
I was thinking to flex mount the exhaust and Muffler. Like on a car it needs to be isolated from the enclosure. I was looking yesterday and found some transmission cooler cores out of radiators I have salvaged. Basicaly an enclosed tube with fittings on the outside. I thought a couple of them in an exhaust pipe would work well especially if I made the pipe rectangular so the gas either mainly went through or around them. I'll have to wait and see what the exhaust noise is like when I'm done. At this point I don't think burying it will be needed and I hope not. I want to keep this thing portable. If it's not quiet enough I'll have to have a re think but at this stage I'm really more concerned about keeping the mechanical rattle down. If I need, mybe I could put the exhaust end in a Drum of Rocks to quieten it if need be? Some larger gravel/ stones should diffuse the air while still leaving pathways for the gas through it. I had not thought of Oil cooling. Don't want to pull too much heat out the engine and I'm not sure on the little engines if the oil is easy to tap anyway. I know on the Vertical Cylinder diesels you can replace a cover and get a pressure feed out the Pump but never looked or thought about it on the smaller horizontal Cylinder type. I do have some external Filter housings with water cooling ports from Turblow cars up the back that would do the job well if I could tap the oil supply. Will be interesting to see what the Crankcase temps run when the thing is loaded though. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
If you can ventilate the enclosure sufficiently, oil temp should not get too far out of bounds. Bloody hell, just for giggles I typed my name (Tony Le Grip) into Google Image. Pictures of the mighty Warpverter, and some very ancient pictures of myself as a 15 year old trainee technician at the ABC, and again later in 1975 in the Antarctic. Quite a shock..... There is also a one and a half hour movie associated with that picture I have never seen before, it sure brings back some memories of the guys I was with on that particular expedition 46 years ago.  Edited 2021-06-21 20:44 by Warpspeed Cheers, Tony. |
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