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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Soundproofing and engine enclosure
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| Warpspeed Guru  Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The reality is, that in a commercial business, say a very busy warehouse, or trucking business, you cannot have your fork lifts slowing down to a crawl in the middle of the afternoon. They need to work a full busy eight hour work shift, and be on recharge for sixteen hours ready for another busy day. If the batteries cannot do that, out the door they go. I don't know how far brand new battery capacity has to fall off to reach that stage, but its probably not all that much. So batteries that are not all that old, with a lot of life still left in them may get retired, and then go on to work for decades in a very light duty in comparison solar application. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
That makes perfect sense and these batteries would be good for what I suggested in those not up to scratch for native use that the companies may scrap. That is good to realise and may help with acquiring some of these battery's. I read a number a while back of the capacity these battery's have to pass before they are used capacity wise in forks but forget what it is now. Still quite high though. The ones I had more in mind with my comment was the specific solar/ Backup batteries I have seen offered. There are a good number that have probably been used in commercial UPS systems that are rolled over every x amount of years. Friend of mine was a manager in a Data backup centre and his company provided on site backup for their clients. Batterys had to be renewed every 5 years I think it was or if an event happened and the servers and covered equipment could not be any more than 10 YO. Getting these batteries ( or fork batteries not that I have seen any offered) from private sellers would be another thing which is what I had in mind. If the price was right might be worth taking a risk and assuming say 50% capacity but the ones I have seen ( and I look pretty regularly) are never cheap. there were some 12V 190 Ah backup batteries just down the road from me at a reasonable price that probably could have been negotiated on given how long they were up for sale but they were what I would call the backup rather than the Cycling type. The construction is such that they are designed to be floated and used occasionally rather than charged and discharged every day. Probably why they weren't rushed even though the price on the face of it seemed good and they were only a couple of years old dated. |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506 |
As you said, be VERY careful about commercial UPS batteries... they usually are not designed to cycle, more float for 5-10 years use twice and are stuffed... even worse if you need to deep cycle them 2-3 times, had my fair share never recover from 1 decent discharge... not saying not use them... just check manufacturer spec sheets. I have 250ah of such batteries in parallel with my forklift, after meticulously adding some water to each cell they have lasted 2 odd years, with some " serious " cycling ( serious cycling in solar isn't really that hard on a decent battery bank, more of a slow deep discharge if prolonged ). Not sure if because in parallel with my forklift battery or actually decent design, but for the price I paid, they seem ok... but the forklift battery is in a league on it own, you can pound em all night and they happily recover the next day ( with minimal water usage mind you), considering what they are designed for this is easy.... On a side note, I always laugh when you get these " fanboy's " of " solar " batteries telling you they paid there first born for a name brand " solar " battery and your an idiot for using a inferior, when the " forklift " battery has better specs and is half the price. Heck some of the photos they post up, the cells look almost identical... I think you need to do a " power audit " as some refer too and see what you will need... I think it works !! |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
If you have cycled them pretty hard and they have been OK for 2 years, what do you see as the danger as you have referred to in your first paragraph? Are you meaning they are very Type/ brand dependent or you are using them as a Booster type thing and the draw is low....? What you say about a couple of hits and they are finished goes with what my friend told me some time back with them having to be replaced in the event of a failure in UPS systems for his company to provide the data safety Guarantee. I think one can at least get an idea of a batterys application by the build of them. 12V skinny batteries to me are the float type. The chunky 2V are good for cycling and the squat 12V type tend to be for starting. Obviously big generalisation but seems to give a general idea for LA at least. Haven't paid a lot of attention to other types. That's another great complaint / exaggeration of the Lipo crowd. They make out like you have to stand there with a hose topping the things up every 2 hours. One guy was raving on about it as if it were some great burden on mankind even when other chimed in and say they top up their watering system ever 2-3 Months and Only then to go and have a look at the things for something to do. Guy made a big deal of that and I said anyone that this was an insufferable inconvenience for must have a very hard time dealing with the ordeals of putting fuel in their car once a week or so or Putting the garbage out on Bin night. I'm interested in real problems but the way people over exaggerate and carry on to prove they have been clever and made the right choice and push an agenda..... To be honest, I'm usually stunned and have to re read to make sure I got it right in what people paid or what these things cost when I look them up. Speaking of first born, There is a cult following in the US for a brand of battery called " Battle Born" . The things are a fortune and I sit and wonder are the people buying large banks of them rich, ignorant or just plain stupid.... especially when they are buying them for occasional camping use or supposedly to save money on power bills. When I used to go camping I'd go to the wreckers, buy a used car battery, charge it with the car when I went anywhere or give it a run in the morning and then might use it for something when I got home and I'd still get a bunch of trips out of it. Had a few 12V lights for illuminating the camp site and Night and thought we were living like Kings not having to worry about gas or Kero lamps.... although had them too. Now they spend a couple of grand on the battery's and more on stupidly priced, weak " Camping" solar Panels to power their Fridge, air con, 48" Tv', Laptop, phone, ( which is always the priority and they make out would pull 10 Kwh a day) the electric coffee maker and every other damn appliance that they infer they could not possibly live without for a weekend. I am often left wondering if their tents are Double story let alone their "RV's" and campers they hook up to parallel 5Kw generators. I would do a power Audit the same way I work out what the costings and product price in my business. Make sure there is more than enough overhead so I never have to bother taking everything into account because I know there is enough margin that I don't have to. :0) The 60 Kwh battery Tony was talking about would be loads for me as well. I'm thinking more like half that useable for when I go that road. If I was on battery I'd simply find a better way to heat or run AC off a generator. I can do that through the day no question, only the night I might need to cover and that would still be heaps. I have been looking to get one of those Portable AC units that you duct out a window. They would make a power saving on their own over resistance heating and of course could be used in summer as well. Seem a lot easier and cheaper than trying to put more splits in. |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506 |
The ones i have had for 2 years are unicorns of the " standby use " field of batteries... rare... why i said just be careful, some will, some won't ( personal experience with several different manufacturers of this type) battery spec pdf Above is the batteries I have, in 48v configuration. Tell tail signs are " no equalization charge required " and " able to remain in float service for 10 years " ... they designed for standby use, however in my particular case, they seem to have held up well.. battery spec 2 I had 600ah ish of these for a good price, all lasted 1 summer, to the point 1 bank even melted under charge one day... yet these have a "cycle life" rating... came from a hospital UPS , standby for 2 odd years etc etc.. This was just 2 particular cases ( many more but too much typing )ive personally gone through, you hopefully/ maybe different. I ended up going with the forklift and never looked back... I think it works !! |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506 |
The ones i have had for 2 years are unicorns of the " standby use " field of batteries... rare... why i said just be careful, some will, some won't ( personal experience with several different manufacturers of this type) battery spec pdf Above is the batteries I have, in 48v configuration. Tell tail signs are " no equalization charge required " and " able to remain in float service for 10 years " ... they designed for standby use, however in my particular case, they seem to have held up well.. battery spec 2 I had 600ah ish of these for a good price, all lasted 1 summer, to the point 1 bank even melted under charge one day... yet these have a "cycle life" rating... came from a hospital UPS , standby for 2 odd years etc etc.. This was just 2 particular cases ( many more but too much typing )ive personally gone through, you hopefully/ maybe different. I ended up going with the forklift and never looked back... I think it works !! |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
I gave the little engine I am thinking of using a fire up today and put a load on it. Yeah, that's going to need some serious soundproofing. The exhaust is noisy but silencing that, typically, the intake is just as bad. I spose I'll leave that stock and enclose the whole thing and then see if I need to so something about it. If so, I'll look for a car airbox and maybe a muffler for it. This engine is just hopper cooled but I had it on a rolling boil as they do and checked the case temp in regards to the oil temp. It was certainly not something I could hold my hand on all day but certainly had a long way to go before being too hot. As I would have the water temp cooler in the cogen setup, I don't believe oil temp would be a problem or there would be much heat to harvest from it. Got me thinking.... This is the little 3KW engine. I was thinking I could make this real compact by having it the way it is, Driving a 12V alternator. Ran the output into a battery, inverter off that and onto a fan heater. That should be good for a KW of heat. The engine should be good for another 2-2.5 Kw. 3Kw would be in the minimal side but OK if I could run 24/7. Car alts are pretty inefficient due to their crappy control electronics and around 80A or a Kw would be all I'd expect to get from 3 Hp. I may be able to get better power output from the IMAG. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
You can always run more than one 12v alternator off it. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
That's if the engine has the power to drive them. I'm certainly open to trying a couple but I have reservations the engine has the grunt. I have 2 alts on my 6 Hp Lister and that seems to be pretty much at it's limit with them. This is only 4.5 Hp BUT, I have long said the other little 3 HP is way under rated and will out pull other 6 Hp engines I have... which unfortunately are all air cooled. The Roid is severely over driving the alts though as it has 23.5" Flywheels Driving about a 3" Pulley. OTOH, The Roid is flat out at 600 RPM so would make the alts turn about 4700 RPM which isn't too fast. In their native vehicular application it's a 5" harmonic Balancer doing up to 6000 Rpm so works out to around a screaming 10000 rpm. The roid seems to be able to pull full RPM and it will certainly roll coal so I haven't seen it restricted in any way. Other things I have read have suggested that about 3 Hp is good for an 80A alt as well. Spose I might be able to get some more power out of 2 alts but I don't think I'll be able to drive them to capacity. 8-10 Hp engine would be perfect for what I want. Was given a 10Hp the other day I have to go get but of course it's air-cooled so not much good for this job. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Usually you need about 2,000 alternator rpm to reach 14v where the alternator light just goes out. No more than 3,000 rpm should see max full rated output. Anything more than that, just makes the engine harder to turn over during starting. On my own genny, I have a nine inch pulley driving a thee inch pulley. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Found some rare inspiration and Motivation today and got out cleaning up and organising the piles of panels around everywhere and then rewarded myself with some playtime with the Co-gen project. Got the big engine out along with the big Induction motor and gave them a trial layout in the frame I intended to use as the mounting sound proof box. I laid out the small engine and motor and they looked pretty silly and small in there so I thought plenty of room for the bigger ones.... well enough anyway as it turns out.  The Kubota RT 125 engine, the 12 Kw motor and the 4Kw motor beside it on the end. Sorry for the crappy pictures, hit and miss with my phone so I'll have to start using the proper tool for the job and not be so lazy. Should know better.   The motor is surprisingly wide and just going to be enough ( Maybe?) room for the insulation although not sure on the fan end.  Shows the offset of the the engine and the motor and how poorly I can see these screens in daylight for composition purposes. The engine will come back more to centre though as I will have to use a pulley as the flywheel will give much to large a speed increase although I could see if I could find a bigger taper lock pulley on fleabay. Have to work out what size I'd want. One thing I have forgotten ( amongst many other things) with this is what sort of power I should be able to get out of this when direct coupled to the mains? As I recall with a C2C config that I could feed into a GTI. I should get around 50% Motor rating without any problem which would mean the engine would make sufficient power at about 1500 rpm which would be nice. I haven't run the Kubota in about 12 Months so I gave it a fire up. I recall it was a bit hard to start when I got it and was much better to use some starting Fluid ( degreaser) to light it off. the starter switch does not seem to be working any more so I just jumped the solenoid. After some cranking I thought, based on my extensive experience with these small diesel engines of many types and brands, that turning on the fuel may help things along a little. Just one of those little handy tricks one picks up with the years of experience. That done without even checking the tank, I wound her up some more and pretty soon, Off she went. At first smoke I made another realisation, the thing is full of veg rather than diesel. This leads me to 2 Conclusions, Either the water treatment I gave the thing before I put it away worked and freed up the rings or the hard starting could have been due to a worn injector pump which the thicker oil is overcoming some what. It was running pretty rich smelling which is technically impossible for a diesel at idle but clearly there was unburnt fuel coming from somewhere. I did check the injector before thinking it was the likely cause of the hard starting but it was spraying well so I would be surprised if the culprit is poor injector performance. Pump might be a bit down on pressure. Compression seems plenty adequate.   The motor and the engine spec. A pretty good match I think, depending on what that power output of the motor should be direct coupled to the mains which I'll have to look up again what the relative factor should be. From fading memory, I think the loss is much less than the C2C setup and I'd be guessing that I might get 9-10 Kilo out the thing which will be all the engine has to drive it. Also from memory, about the limit of the wiring where I want to connect the setup. I only want to run 2 of the 3 Phases so I'll also have to lookup and see if I can find out if I can put a cap across 2 phases to combine them.... although not sure how that will help being at the limit already of what I can pump back. Might bleed the 3rd leg off to the hot water or something. Not sure If I can direct couple to the mains and run one leg independent either. Can't see why not as the mains should keep the Field from collapsing. So much I have forgotten it's embarrassing. I was really up on all this once upon a time.  The works side of the Kubota. One thing I have noticed that is a common trait with ALL china engines is the fuel systems are chit and leak universally. This one is no different. The little one had the same problem and I tightened the gland nut on the fuel tap till the thing couldn't be turned off any more but it's not leaking left on so I'm good with that. They are shut down with the throttle lever and If I have a runaway, turning off the fuel isn't going to do anything If I could.  This is the little engine I set up as a Battery Charger. Works great. Used it on the weekend to Fire up the Diesel Mower which has been sitting. Noisy little bugger but in standard config. I took the muffler off it and packed it with some stainless scourer pads to see if I could hush it a bit for the time being when till we are all out of the worlds largest prison and can go get some exhaust piping bent up and fit a car muffler. Haven't tried it yet but by the look of the inside of the thing it's hard to imagine there could not be some noticeable improvement. Surprisingly, that one did have a bit of Bark to it.   Engine and motor spec plates. also appear to be a good match. Just not sure if they are going too be small and worth while enough doing for what I want. -IF- I could get 3 Kw of power and a similar amount of heat, Might be quite good. Be light enough to put on some trolley wheels and move around wheelbarrow style. Engine is 60 Kg and motor is 48 I think. Not sure the capacity of the engine. Although they all tend to be clones, the specs for this size seem to be all over the place. Anything from 211 CC to 230, 30 Kg to 60, 2200RPM to 2800 Rpm and so it goes. I think mine is likely to be 230CC given the power at the stated revs.  One thing with the hopper cooling on the little engine is it will be easy to make up a plate with an inlet and outlet for the water cooling just on the top of the hopper. Was filled with this coolant when I got it but feeling around in there I found a lot of sediment. I have a sneaking suspicion is might actually be a sealer like bars leak or something a previous owner has put in. There are signs of weeping at some stage on the block which is what makes me think this is what it may be as it does not appear to be gritty like dirt. Far as I know those sort of things rely on pressure in the cooling system to push them into the leak so not sure how effective they may be.  This is the cooling system on the Kubota. Not what I had in mind. I thought there might be hoses on the radiator but it seems much the same as the little engine being a hopper style with a radiator rather than just evap Cooling. Might be that I just have to take this off and make a plate much the same as the little 4 HP. I'll try and find an engine diagram to see how it works. The spare engine is well buried but at worst I could exhume that and pull it apart to get an idea. I was thinking/ hoping this would have hoses I could tap into and either bypass the radiator for Co-gen heating the house or use the radiator for cooling when I wanted power only. I don't know if there is a thermostat in there somewhere. I ran the thing a good while today admittedly with no load but I felt the block had warmed up fine but the significant ( surprisingly so) amount of air coming out the radiator was stone cold. The thing has Thai writing on it and they are also still available here new ( for a Kings Ransome!!) so I spose they need to and are designed to cope with very warm climates. The thing does run surprising smooth and is pretty quiet... for what it is. Covering the stock exhaust which is new ( and I got another new one with it with the spare engine I got in the deal) with a bunched up Towel while running as usual makes little difference to the overall noise of the engine, rather just tends to change the tone a bit. The air intake is typically noisy but I don't think I'll worry about that. If it's all inside in the soundproofed enclosure that should take care of itself. The exhaust on this one should be able to straight shot out and then put a tube in tube HE around for more heat collection. On this engine that would be far more worth while than the smaller one. I could take it out, up and over the top of the motor Pulley and then out to give a long run to collect more heat before the exhaust exited the enclosure. Muffler could go outside the box and therefore be as large as I liked. I think the weight should be OK. 170 for the motor, 112 For the engine. Even if all the frame work and ancillary go another 50 KG, Still should be able to lift with the front of the tractor as well as the 3 Point but getting it near the house where I want it will involve bit of pushing and grunting and wheels. This is an advantage the little setup would have. Less heat and power but averaged over a day.... The frame will need raising for clearance at the top for insulation for the big engine, should be OK for the little one. I'd probably fit a Lid which was a bit oversize for weather protection on the sides as well. The idea being to use ply surround and line with the earth-wool held in place with spray glue on the panelling and chicken wire on the inside. If I could get some sarking or similar foil offcuts that would be better still. Not sure about rubber mounting, the thing seems pretty smooth and quiet so letting it vibrate may amplify any vibrations and make more noise but on the 3rd hand, if everything is secured and there is some rubber strip on the lid ( car door seal would be good) then shouldn't have much problem. The board the engine was sitting on today was lose and didn't really vibrate even though the engine wanted to walk around a bit. Anyway, more I do more I have to think and procrastinate over. Edited 2021-07-13 22:21 by Davo99 |
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
Looks like its going to be a good setup, the 16Hp electric motor looks like a 2 speed jobby should have a diagram under the terminal cover. I Have a 15hp teco, the plastic fan on them do shift some air. Had on old engine running today with a water hoppper, they heat up well and its just a thermosyphon style. I remember a friend had an old Bamford diesel engine, they made the water hopper out of an old 205l drum.....too big and the water never got hot. Edited 2021-07-14 22:07 by Revlac Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Went out today and started thinking a bit more about the little engine and induction motor setup. Bit of mental arithmetic and quick look around for some suitable Unistrut and I had them mounted up together and running. Yeah, really, just like that!  Figured they don't have to be in the enclosure for testing and the setup with the house heating side is going to be the same for either engine so if I set that up will literally be changing 2 Hose connections from one engine to the other. Pretty much the same with the enclosure. That will be 90% the same whatever is in it and I can look at mounting them big setup on the heavy uni strut and just lifting it our if I need. Old habits die hard, Immediately started doing the wiring without thinking about it is C2C config. wasn't till I couldn't find one capacitor It dawned on me I wasn't going to go this way this time. I might however run it through a 3 Phase Rectifier and then into a GTI. Done that before and it will hunt a bit but OK for testing. I'll see what sort of heat I can get out of it and then the power when direct coupled. Was looking on the net to see what sort of output I should get like this but didn't find a direct answer. What I did find seemed to suggest upwards of 80% or a lot more than the C2C method which is what I thought. The stainless wool in the muffler didn't seem to do much. I don't think I have any suitable size pipe to fab anything up either. might have to put up with it for a bit the way it is although I would like to see how much heat is in the exhaust. Other thing will be to make up a plate for the cooling hopper to Circulate the water. Thinking about that, going to be a fair bit of water to heat up. I'll have to try and keep the hoses short as possible which means the soundproofing on the enclosure will want to be as good as possible. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
Yes, I was excited to see that when I got the motor as I thought I can run it at slow speed and keep the noise down. Then I realised it only puts out a fraction of it's power at 735 rpm or whatever it is and no point having 170 Kg motor to produce less than 2 Kilo when I can get better than that with a 46 Kg motor although at faster engine speed. Been many years since I played with it but I got the 4Kw teco going today and I had forgotten how much air they do move. Cooling is definitely NOT going to be a problem as a generator which will probably only be doing 2/3 Motor rating if that. Yes, I spun the little diesel and the motor up today and even with the load of the motor freewheeling ( and the powerful fan) I noticed how much quicker it came up to temp than with the car alternator. Not that I have been able to put much load on that. For the co-gen setup I might want to put some insulation around that hopper.... as counter productive to the original design that will be. I have a 6Hp CS listeroid. I set that up with a car radiator. Even on one fan the thing cooled the water down to ambient. I got a tail light as a resistor and spliced it in series with the fan and it was still too much so I blocked most of the core in front of it with cardboard. I also T'd The outlet from the engine to the radiator and sat a drum of water up above so it was a no pressure but always full system. The amount of heat that wicked up that 3/4 Piece of hose into the drum was incredible. I never had the faintest grasp how effective Thermo syphoning could be till then. In hindsight probably more hot water going up there than passing through the radiator. If a thermo syphon System is set up properly, it can be amazingly effective. I reckon if I ever set up another fixed stationary engine, I would use the exhaust going through a Venturi setup to pull in cold air and blow that through the radiator. I think that would be good to stop or at least limit over-cooling and if using a car radiator, all you need to do is get the air moving through the core at any small rate and the thing will be fine. I have also seen people mount radiators flat and put a hood over them with a longish duct above. The draw of the warm air effectively thermo syphoning through that arrangement keeps fair size motors cool and is somewhat self regulating as well. |
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| Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961 |
When I was doing a lot of Aluminium welding, we used to weld up lot of intercoolers for some young fellers that like to give there engines hell down the track, or before they got there.   Most of them were made from large truck intercoolers just cut down to size, took an aw full lot of cleaning to get a good weld on them. You may find one during your travels, the In/outlet would certainly be big enough to run exhaust or what ever you want through it. Built a block splitter some time back and it was powered by by an old Flat head Hillman engine, not a very load engine to run compared to most others, it was also a thermosyphon originally, we put a magna water pump on it with a sigma radiator, it used to put out some heat and often commented on running that into the house, the pump was too fast and the water going back the the motor seemed to be still too hot, might just have thought that as it was great working beside that on a winter evening. The OHV Hillman did also idle nice with out being loud (until it was loaded up), just a pipe out no muffler ever, longer stroke engine or something. The old man had this one driving an old howard tractor, used to give it some hell with that rotary hoe. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577 |
I have thought about a large diesel car engine. Trouble is Diesels are really stuffed before they are scrapped and sold for re use anywhere they are pretty exy, unlike old petrol engines. I gave the small engine and motor a spin up today. Set it up as an IMAG just for old times sake. Took a bit to remember the wiring even though I had the old setup. Just plugging the caps in the right setup took a bit of thinking. Got it going and between playing with the engine speed and the settings on a heat gun, got the thing cooking along pretty nice. Was outputting about 1700W or so. I may have been tapping off the wrong terminals and not getting full power but it was generating anyway. It was a reminder how Touchy and unregulated this system is. Even when I turned down the heat setting on the gun, the Volts would momentarily fall then come up again. Really is a complete tightrope balancing act from the time it starts generating and so difficult to bring in a decent load without either collapsing the field or overshooting the voltage wildly. I did get the engine boiling like a Kettle I might see if I can set the thing up tomorrow to do a direct back feed with the power to the mains and then I'll look at making the cooling adapter plate. I can't remember the energy breakdown of an engine Now. I know it's basicly 3rds, Power, heat, mechanical losses But I can't remember if this engine being 3 Kw will give give 3 Kw of power and 3 KW of heat. Hope so because if that is the case, Should come in about where I want it. |
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