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Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 10:58am 21 Jun 2021
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I have run some of these little engines pretty hard and I don't ever remember the oil temp getting out of control. The casings get hot but not unbearably. Being the layout they are, I think the oil and overall engine / water temp would be pretty closely connected.
I actually think there is greater danger over cooling these engines than overheating them in this scenario. The small engines I believe are splash lube and at some point go to pressure. All the vertical Cylinder Chinaah/ Yanmar clones have an oil pump.
Some of the The Listeroid engines are Splash with a Dipper on the con rod.The original genuine engines had plain bearings and an Oil pump where the " roids often hare tapered roller bearings. The dipper on the TRB types is a small rod that runs knife edge and is probably only 3-4MM wide. It's well known the HUGE amount of oil they sling around the entire Crankcase. A few people have put perspex as the crank case cover and shown how much oil is thrown around. Literally drenches the entire internals in oil including the piston. It is important to oil the rocker gear before each run and during longer use.
For the cogen setup, I was thinking to have the aircleaner in the enclosed box so it would consume the air in there and draw fresh, cool air in. The motor will need some fresh cooling air although they don't get very warm as an IMAG. Don't see it hurting HP much and the extra engine heat I can harvest anyway.
Funny enough, I googled my own name some weeks back. Nada. Was looking for something on a family member and I got a Load more hits on that than I realised were out there.
You seem like a man that has had an interesting life Tony. From your knowledge about so many things, I'd say wide and varied experiences as well.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 11:26am 21 Jun 2021
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My Wisconsin is splash lubricated as well. The main bearings are huge roller bearings, but the big end is just a normal shell type bearing. Thinking about it, running at only 1,000 rpm, I might overfill the oil a bit, just to make certain enough oil gets tossed around.
Agree about temperature. I doubt if you will ever have high oil temperature problems, in fact its good to get the oil nice and hot to boil off any condensation or fuel dilution.
I have done a few rather unusual things, and had some interesting experiences along the way, a great many different jobs over the years, but glad to be retired and out of it these days.
There is just too much corruption, honesty and integrity seem to be going out of fashion.Cheers, Tony.
johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282
Posted: 01:23am 22 Jun 2021
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The need for engine oil cooling in a water cooled engine , is only required, when the engine is operated in a sealed container. Most engines lose about 10-15% radiating heating to the sorrounding free air.
Cheers johnjohnmc
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 03:03pm 22 Jun 2021
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The one I did for my friend may have been an earlier model. It only had plain bearings. Honda really got ahead in the small engine market because they were using Roller bearings very early on in the piece and Cast iron sleeves in their engines. The main competitor Briggs were using NO bearings. The mains were just the aluminium engine casing and the Big end ran direct on the crank. They later went to bronze bushings and OHC instead of side valves. The other US made engines were always Minor players in comparison to Honda and Briggs.
I have seen this brought up many times. Every time someone has looked at an engine at low speed the oiling has always been more than sufficient. Also has to be remembered there is a lot less heat and pressure in an engine doing low speed so the oiling required is less anyway....
The key to Longevity of an engine IMHO is not using the best oil, it's regular changes particularly on small engines without a filter but on any engine. I rather put supermarket grade oil in my engine and change it at short intervals than have the best synthetic and run it double time. It's not the oil that breaks down, it's the additives and the rubbish that accumulates in it that's the problem.
It's easy to see an engine that has been run without a thermostat and too cold. All you have to do on a vehicle engine is remove the oil cap. You will often see condensation, creamy oil or just a load of thick gunk. Usually see the gunk on the rockers as well when you look inside. Engines are meant to run at certain min and max temps for proper clearances as well as Oil flow which is much different from cold to hot even on multi grades.
As I intend to run whatever engine on Veg oil, it's more critical to have the oil up to temp and changed regularly. On old engines with buildup, I have added Diesel or Naptha which is the active ingredient in EVERY fuel or oil treatment I have ever looked up the MSDS on. It's a powerful solvent which is also clean burning and dissolves everything I have come across.
I am amazed at people that can do the one job their entire career. My father in law retired as Production manager at a large aerospace Firm where he started immediately after finishing his apprenticeship. For 53 years he left the same house and went to the same factory every day. There is no way I could have done that. He was offered endless promotions but he was a big believer in going home at night and family life. He knew the higher he went the more these would be compromised. He went as high as he could while not giving these things up and was happy. Being there for his family was more important than being there for the company. He was a great man whom I loved very much and still miss badly.
I have done a lot of things and never stayed motivated in anything more than about 3 years. Once I got over the major learning curve, I never had anything that offered me enough interest. Even in my own Business I got bored a few times and went to work else where but that would last about 12 Months and I'd get sick of the BS and realise how damn lucky I was to be able to work for myself and not be bored for another 5-10 years or so. I was good to do that though as I always got a fresh perspective on things and new ideas as well as motivation that made the business more successful. I never had ANY trouble picking up from where I left off.
Could not agree more! I remember talking to a senior manager once about a woman in my charge whom was not pulling her weight. Constantly late, Days off, not following up, just slack. I spoke to her on numerous occasions and was like talking to a brick wall. The guy I approached tore strips off me. Told me she had been with the company a long time, she was an asset to the business, Like my hide to criticise her having just walked in the door myself and basically I was lucky he did not fire me for making unfounded allegations. I said HR will prove her Tardiness and constant days off, not allegations, was demonstrable fact that he must be aware of. That only enraged him more and I was told to get out of his office in a tirade.
He lit up too much and trigged my suspicions. I planned to go over his head after more lateness and problems with the woman but didn't get the chance. Got called into a meeting where the management was in damage control after it was discovered the guy was having an affair with the woman also married.
I was livid and ripped the guy a new one and was all I could do not to take his head off then and there. Told everyone what had happened and that he put it back on me to defend the woman he was screwing. Thought I was crossing a line and my arse would be straight out the door after his but I didn't care. I kept my job and obviously he walked as there were suspicions of embezzlement and was found he had put the woman on a much higher pay grade than she was due.
I stayed a while but it left a bad taste in my mouth and the job was not satisfying in any way so I went back to my own thing. I found out some time later that them being dismissed at work lead to their partners finding out about their horizontal Hoola activities and them both being divorced. The bloke wanted to get together with the Bimbo but she gave him the knock back so he was SOL.
In the old days there was Company Loyalty. The employee was loyal to the company and vice versa. No such thing now. Everyone is out to screw everyone. My grandfather worked for a bus company for many years. He would go in when asked to fill in and help out and when he wanted time off, it was given without loss of pay. He said he never took a " sickie". If he wanted time off he asked for it with as much notice as he could and they knew if he said he was crook, he was. He got pretty sick once and the Boss would come visit him every couple of days, first in Hospital and then at home. He would bring my Grandmother a Fruit box of Groceries, meat, and fruit and veg and bring him his pay packet and some extra to help out. Gran said there was never so much food in the house and never forgot what that man did for them. Grandad always said the owner of the Business was hard but fair and looked after his men. He certainly proved it.
None of that these days. 99% of bosses/ owners wouldn't care and some people would probably complain if the boss turned up to see if they were OK and take offence at being brought food.
I got a job once and specifically asked at the interview what the staff turnover was like. Was told that employees stayed for years and there were still original employees since they day they started 11 years earlier. Took me about 2 days to realise the front door had an employee turnstile. People came and went literally faster than you could remember their names. Also took me 4 Days to work out why when I was hauled over the carpet for something I had paperwork to prove I didn't do but was ignored in defence of an outside contractor whom was at fault. So much for employee loyalty!
My wife says I couldn't work for anyone again. She is right! The PC BS and the mindset of the workplace now has left me behind and would require a patience and level of soft of heart and head I do not possess.
My wife recently applied for some positions closer to home. The idiotic application process with all these stupid and irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the job at hand are beyond ridiculous. They are clearly US based and mark you down because you can not perfectly address an overseas letter to an obscure country when that would never be a requirement of the position ( at least not in the 30 Plus years my wife has been doing it) which is mind numbing. She was discredited from one Full time position because she did not mark she was interested in Part time and casual work.... What the Living Fluck??? That automatically disqualified her from getting an interview.
Yeah, won many awards for her work but not a valid candidate for the same position elsewhere because she didn't mark work hours the position was not for in the first place.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 03:30pm 22 Jun 2021
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I have read that radiated heat figure before. My thoughts are if I can draw that heat back into the engine and replace it with cool air entering from the IMAG side, I should be able to then at least partially recover it. Should only be pulling around 15 Cuf/ min but that should be enough fresh air to keep everything reasonable.
Should also eliminate the need to have an in and out penetration into the enclosure and just have the intake.
The engine I plan on this stage of using will only be 4 Kw so keeping that cool will be no problem at all. Not really sure there would be a practical way of cooling the oil on these engines in any case. May be able to use a Pulse pump to pull oil from the drain plug, push it through a cooler and return it to the engine through the oil fill but seems like something that will create a lot of potential failure points and on a splash lube engine, No way I know to monitor oil levels for auto shutoff.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 08:53pm 22 Jun 2021
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Very useful to know Dave. I have very little experience with small splash lubricated engines. Only the usual Briggs lawnmowers, and those are usually replaced rather than rebuilt.
This is a picture from the internet of the crank, the roller bearings are simly enormous, and the big end bearing unusually wide. This one also has the cast iron barrel, the later engines used an aluminium barrel.
If I was doing all this over again I would prefer a water cooled multi cylinder engine with EFI, starter and alternator already on it. One of those tiny Japanese three cylinder car engines engines might be interesting. Natural gas should put less crap into the oil, as it should burn more cleanly, but there will still be water vapor from combustion in the blow by, so nice hot oil and positive crankcase ventilation should take care of that.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 02:02am 23 Jun 2021
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Tony, Being it is a splash engine, if you were concerned about Oiling ( which I believe will not be a problem) you could play with the Dipper to give more splash.
The Dipper on the listers is relatively Tiny compared to things like Briggs and the Lister is just a flat blade on edge where the petrol types tend to be much larger and a "T" or wing sort of shape in most cases I have seen.
In a splash engine you wouldn't really have to worry about aerating the oil nor the bit of extra drag the increased resistance would cause. You may have to watch you don't over power and drown the oil control ring however. They are only designed to deal with a film of oil not gallons of it.
These engine are pretty rugged and tough. If you look at the displacement for the power output and the RPM, They are VERY under stressed. They ofen go their whole lives without an oil change, get run at all sorts of weird angles starving them of oil and operating where they were never designed to be and the things hammer on for years. A friend used to race go karts with 9hp industrial engines ( Robins) and they only used to run 25% the amount of oil to reduce drag. They ran full Synth and changed it ever race but none the less, a quarter of the normal oil level and throwing the things into corners and barking hard as they can did not cause anyone in the competition ( Standard sealed engine) ANY oil related issues at all.
I can also predict cautions of Glazed cylinder bores running slow but I have never really understood that? I have run LOADS of engines with shiny bores and in fact many of the bores in racing motorbikes for decades are Chrome / Mirror finish and I have never had any problems. I have seen shiny bores with Cross hatch and without and all seem the same as freshly honed Dull bores.
Also run engines with Scored and marked bores and never seen any great detriment with that. If it loses ring sealing, a few scratches are insignificant to the ring gaps anyway.
I am yet to hear of anyone having a problem with low speed oiling but read a great many comments from people using their engines at low speed for years with no issues at all. Keep the oil clean and all good.
I would suggest your concern for low running temps is far more valid. That said, if the engine is loaded not just idling at low speed it will still generate plenty of heat to bring the temp up. Should all be relatively proportional as the lower fan speed also means less cooling.
You could also partially restrict the blower housing or the output if you found the temps were too low for your satisfaction and I'm sure for a man of your endless talents, it would be dead easy to fabricate a controller to drive a couple of servos to open and close baffles or vanes to control airflow and temp. Never going to be needed IMHO.
An EFI engine I don't think would give much advantage in this case. I take it you would be able to set the engine up for a narrow Rev range and in that a carb properly tuned and setup would give near as Dammit if not the same economy. Starting should be no different especially on gas.
The advantage of EFI is really the ability to tune individual load points and that far as I can see would not be required here. If you are going to run gas, you are basically going to have to go to a carb system anyway. There are some EFI Gas systems, Think Ford had a direct one but they are on larger engines not the economical small ones that no one uses on gas anyway.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 02:18am 23 Jun 2021
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I have had it running, but not yet under load, and it seems happy enough. I did buy a cheap Chniese carb for it, and to my amazement the air fuel ratios are spot on without having to fiddle with anything. I will just run it as it is, and see how it goes.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 04:26am 23 Jun 2021
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Those Chinese Carbs are Very good. had experience with a few of them.
My fathers John Deere mower was hunting badly at idle due to a blocked low speed Jet I could not clear. JD stealers wanted over $600.... for a tiny little carb. I could buy an 800 Holley For that!
Found one on fleabay and it was delivered in a couple of days for $28. It had a Pin on the throttle cam where I needed a Hole so I pulled the pin out and that was it. Put it on and ran perfect. The Irony with that was the original carb we replaced had CHINA on it and the replacement Didn't!
The carb on the greenfield Mower used to leak a lot so I got one for that too. Was $17 delivered and I had to do some Minor Mod to that but bolted up to the Honda motor and ran perfect. I came with decent clamps, length of fuel hose, a filter and gaskets.
Unreal Value.
One thing with the replacement carbs over the OEM's is the replacements usually have a mixture screw where everything being built now is designed to comply with the US market Regs don't.
Hope you can post a vid of your setup running when it gets there Tony. Have you decided on how you are going to enclose it or still pondering?
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:18am 23 Jun 2021
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Still pondering.
I need to buy a fork lift battery first. What I think I will do is initially buy a 48v battery and run my 100v Warpverter on just that first. It will only put out 115v not 230v running like that, but I can step that up to 230v with an external 2:1 transformer I already have here.
Later, when my piggy bank has recovered a bit, I will buy a second 48v fork lift battery and put it in series.
Until I get another 100v battery going, the generator can wait. Not willing to spend several hundred on more of the same lithium cells. One Fork lift battery will give me x5 the capacity, and two x10 the capacity, hopefully a lot more reliably. Edited 2021-06-23 16:25 by WarpspeedCheers, Tony.
nickskethisniks Guru Joined: 17/10/2017 Location: BelgiumPosts: 417
Posted: 10:23am 23 Jun 2021
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Hi, I need to read up yet, but this is how I did:
I used 2 wooden compartments mechanically decoupled by 22cm thick isolation. I used 20cm in and outlet noise reducing hose used in ventilation systems. I think I had a 10db reduction, it was quite impressive actually. It's already a "silent" inverter but still loud. But now I don't hesitate using it during the day, only concern now is the smell when there's not much wind.
The unit Hyundai unit is capable of doing 3.2kva but I'm only using it at 1000va most of the time, max 1.6kVA. So no heat concerns, and probably better for long term use. It has a remote for turning it on or off, so if I'm on the right spot I can start it in the house. With about 7liters I can run around 8h, and let it shut off itself on heavy clouded days. The generator is selfcooling so I did screw the side off for a better fit, but no extra fan was needed for the power level I'm using.
Edited 2021-06-23 20:32 by nickskethisniks
johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282
Posted: 10:58am 23 Jun 2021
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Good day Nick, Well done
It sure is a lot of insulation 22cm, but 10 db noise reduction is also impressive.
Cheers johnjohnmc
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:07pm 23 Jun 2021
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I was thinking today of sand bags to build or go round an enclosure. I think they would absorb a good amount of sound and while being solid, they would also be moveable in the event one wanted to exhume the engine or relocate it.
What sort of capacity are you hoping to get in a Battery Tony?
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 11:19pm 23 Jun 2021
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That looks pretty efficient Nick, very neat and compact too. Some of the "silent" portable generators now available are very quiet.
Lack of an electric start for fully automatic operation discouraged me from getting one myself, and it would not be an easy thing to add. But for the occasional battery recharge during mid winter it should work very well.
Dave, a popular size for fork lift batteries seems to be in the 500Ah to 600Ah range. Anything much smaller or much larger would be less common and probably more expensive per Kwh. Don't really know, have not actually costed out anything yet.
My current lithium battery is 50Ah and 100 nominal volts which is only just sufficient, and only falls short a few times where I get a week of gloomy days in a row, which is not that often. With ten times that capacity, it could be pitch dark here for almost a week before I ran out of battery.Cheers, Tony.
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 12:04am 24 Jun 2021
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Dave, I got mine from " ceil " in brissy... they all over country..
I highly recommend them, easy to deal with , about 4 grand including shipping , that was 2nd hand with capacity report and 12 month warranty... 660ah ...
They more expensive than say ebay, but I did it because they have warranty etc. Also thats at 5 hour rate ( look up Peukert's law ) so solar is a walk in the park for these batteries.. life span should be 10's of yearsI think it works !!
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:35am 24 Jun 2021
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There are several businesses out there offering a similar deal, its starting to become quite competitive. 48v 660Ah is pretty typical and that price sounds about right too. That is about ten times the amp hours per dollar compared to new lithium cells.
Many advantages of buying from a reputable company, rather than a one only deal on e-bay, or from some bloke you met at the pub.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:36am 24 Jun 2021
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I missed your post Nick but that sure looks like it would make anything quiet. What do they call that sort of Insulation? Not sure I have seen it before.
It looks like the Genny may be able to be heard if you were standing on top of it and listening for it but probably less noise than the outdoor unit on an AC or something like a Pool Pump. In my mind, I don't need anything to be silent, just quiet enough to be acceptable like other things mentioned. This certainly looks like it would fit the Bill. I was watching a vid yesterday on people trying to silence their Diesel heaters like I have. I like the sound of work Quietly being done and being able to tell if something is still going. I like the gentle sound of the little heater, I think we all find it quite soothing.
Thanks for the pics. They are very interesting. What you have done is simple and straightforward but easy to see would work really well.
I wasn't aware of the silent Ducting. I'll ask my mate that does AC about it. Looks to me like the standard Insulated Double layer stuff they have here but maybe it's thicker or Tar lined or something like that?
"Silent" I think is a bit of a stretch with a lot of those Gennys. Funny enough I looked at some Vids of the Hyuandi's the other day and they seemed quite loud but hard to tell in vids as cameras tend to zoom in on sounds and amp them up to a standard level anyway. Looks like what you have set up would come as close as one would practically get to silent and there are no mods to the machine itself.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 01:44am 24 Jun 2021
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100V@ 620 Ah @ 80% Working capacity DOD.... 50KWh Battery. When you have it up and done, Roger and I are going to point you to a couple of the lithium obsessed websites full of fan Bois so you can show them what you have and watch them go into a flat spin. You will then be able to shoot down all their crap like can only discharge them 20% or feed in 5a or the other rubbish I suspect they purposefully go on with. The other thing they would allege is you can only pull minimal amps out of them then you could show the warpverter and say how many Kw will you inverter handle?
I'd pay for entertainment like that! :0)
A battery like that begs the question if you'd need a genny more than about once a year? May not even be worth worrying about being able to run it on gas?
Is your current battery still functional with the lost cells or working at greatly reduced capacity? I have noticed a few local suppliers popping up on fleabay and Dumbtree. The prices do not seem cheap to me for the capacity battery but I don't know what the chynaah imported ones run to get them to ones door either.
Would last me a sunny day here in winter last year but you remind me, I haven't monitored my power use with the diesel heater this winter. I'll have to look at that. Be hard to compare as I'm running about half the panels atm but we have used the air so much less. Then again, the Mrs and daughter hit the fan heaters pretty hard too. Even the one in my office here is reading 92 Kwh I have put on it for so far.
The thing to remember with overcast weather and batteries is it does not calculate straight out. You might get bad weather but over say a few days or a week depending, you will get some input so that may well extend your range out another day or 2. Being able to do a top up now and then with a genny would be worth to me at least the peace of mind even if it was just every few days before the batteries got below 50% useable.
It's a LOT of batteries though for 100V :0) If you had the packs on 2 Sides of the Genny enclosure you are half way there to start! I was looking at the Besser bricks last Night. They are so cheap. I was wondering if Filling them with sand or sawdust or some other material would help their sound absorbing qualities or if it would even be needed?
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 01:56am 24 Jun 2021
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You are quite right about the need for a genny with the word's biggest battery. That is why progress on that front has somewhat diminished.
The problem with the lithium cells is that 10% are now dead and that has dropped the voltage to the point that the mighty Warpverter starts to crap out through undervoltage before I am seeing even half the theoretical discharge capacity of the cells.
These things have a very flat voltage discharge curve, and removing three out of thirty cells drops the total voltage way down.
Besser bricks, even stacked dry without cement should work just fine. The main thing is to have something rigid with some mass, that is not going to flap around, wobble, or vibrate.
Some big breeze blocks piled up would be pretty easy to remove for total access. Edited 2021-06-24 12:02 by WarpspeedCheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 02:08am 24 Jun 2021
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I looked at the Sydney company that lists on ebay. They say they are having a clearance sale and seems Genuine. Packs much cheaper than I have seen them offer before. Maybe there is a downturn in their industry as well and they need to move some stock along?
Someone somewhere sometime back suggested contacting these companies and asking if they have any packs that fail the load test and may be sent for scrap but are otherwise OK. Sounds like a good way to get some low cost batteries to play around with if nothing else. Might be fine for home use as unlikely to pull the sort of amps out of them that a fork I imagine would. Of course that depends on these companies having and selling suck packs and what they would want for them anyway.
A guy bought some panels off me who has some Nickle iron? Cells he salvaged from somewhere and says he has had great use from them. Think he bought them for scrap price and have turned out very worthwhile.
Lipo has a lot of advantages man merits but despite endless hype, I have yet to see price being one of them. Read a lot about them being available at the same or cheaper price than LA but yet to see them come close for myself or I suspect anyone else in Oz at least.
I think buying from a Company would be wise and I'd never spend significant money on the packs I see privately advertised. Just no way to tell what condition the batteries are really in or what's been done to them. The thought that crosses my mind when I see them is if they are working perfectly, why would you go to the trouble of replacing them? In nearly ever case the batteries on offer are far from cheap or a bargain anyway and if there were any savings on what a company would ask, I'd pay the extra for the free of worry factor of doing all the money spent on the private ones.
By the same token, I am unsure one way or the other in the value/ need to buy the best batteries out there. Seems like many other things the better/ higher capacity/ newer batteries are like 300% the price of the " Ordinary" ones. Like many things I have come across, it may be better to get something cheaper and replace it when it's done. Not saying buy rubbish, but the not so young, OK packs may in fact be more economical than getting the newest and the best.
The first pack I get won't be the best. I want to make my learning curve and potential stuff ups on the least expensive victim possible. By the same token, from what I have read and know, there shouldn't be a lot to do wrong with some basic Diligence.
What one gets I spose it depends on each individual outlook and situation. Unless one knew the owner and history of batteries, I think it would be a big risk to buy something one had no comeback on like privately. I still have a look round the scrap yard when I go though. Seen a lot of packs there but all were clearly cooked and beyond any sort of use. Many are drained cells to that may be a requirement of disposal or something.
I know many times I have bought cheaper equipment for limited or one off short term applications and had service and life waaaay beyond what I was ever expecting. Matter of fact, I can't remember wearing any of it out despite using it infinitely longer than planned.
My experience like this motivates me to take a few non critical risks while at the same time there are things where I'll just buy the best I can.
If you can get a good deal and a warranty, that's a no brainer.
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