 Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me. |
Forum Index : Windmills : F&P wiring abbreviation standards
Page 1 of 2   |
|||||
| Author | Message | ||||
Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
There's a bit of confusion with the different F&P wiring options and the abbreviations used to identify them. Originally the only options we used were
Then the 7 phase modification reared it ugly head and I tried to implement a new standard to describe them. For example a 7 phase 6 pole ( 7p6p ), or a 7 phase 2 pole ( 7p2p ). The 7p bit was to indicate this was a 7 phase conversion, very different from the standard 3 phase configuration. http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/articles/coglessFP.asp Lately I've seen terms like 2p7p to describe a stator with 2 parallel groups of 7 poles in series. This is getting confused with the 7p2p ( 7 phase 2 poles in series ). Add to that the new 36 pole stators, and things will get more confusing. http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/FPRewire.asp So, I propose we work out a identification scheme to cover all the different combinations. The scheme needs to identify the number of phases ( 3 or 7 or other ), the stator (36 or 42 pole or other ) and the rewire options. It should allow for other types of motors that may apear in the future, and it should allow for staggered re-wires ( where there may be 2 lots of 3 poles in series and one lot of 4 poles in series on the one stator ). Once we have a scheme, I will document it and put it online so anyone can refer back to it. So where do we start, who has a suggestion. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Gizmo, Why not code them simular to how some electronic components are coded. Like – FP-24V-42C-80S-7WP-2X3CS+1X4CP FP = Motor type 24V = Voltage configured for 42C = Number of stator coils (instead of poles) 80M = Model of stator ( or wire size) 7WP = Number of wired phases ( reserve P for parallel only) 2x3C = Number of coils in series or parallel P = Parallel S = Series By changing Poles to Coils may reduce some confusion and reserve a letter for one description only. By reserving letters for one description only, will allow for the code to be written in any order and still make sense. In short. V = volts C = coils M = model WP = wired phases S = series P = parallel Maybe FP = fisher and paykel I = induction motor PM = permanent magnet Once established what configuration one is referring to in a posting then it could be shortened to 7WP-2xCS. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
||||
| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
I dont think we need the voltage included. A stator modified for 24v would work for 12v in light winds with a bigger turbine, so the volts is not relevant. As most motors are 3 phase, we could leave out that bit unless it isn't 3 phase. eg A 3 phase 2 pole in series and a 7 phase 2 poles in series could be called. 3ph2p and a 7ph2p. instead assume its 3 phase unless otherwise stated. 2p and a 7ph2p Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Glenn, The code should describe the stator. s should indicate the number of series coils p should indicate the number of parallel strings. The stator used would be 60, 80, or 100, in the 42pole type. Think there is only 1 36pole type. 3phase, or 7phase could be spelled out. I have used this type of naming. 3phase delta Series80 7s2p . Not much trouble working this out. There are not that many rewires to warrant a complicated coding system like presented above. eg. " FP-24V-42C-80S-7WP-2X3CS+1X4CP ". Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
I think the 2p bit can throw people off, get confused with poles, since thats what p was used for originally. Some time in the last year or so p was used for parallel as well as poles, and its now confusing. p or s, we need to stick by it for poles. What if we use p for poles, and X for the number of poles string connected in parallel. S could be the series ( 60,80,100 ). So a 80series 7s2p could be a 80S,7pX2. A 60 series staggered stator with 3 poles in series by 2 and 4 poles in series by 1 could be 60S,3pX2,4pX1. A 100 series 7 phase 3 pole could be 7ph,100S,3pX2. If its anything else than a 42pole stator, then add the pole count, eg 36pole,4pX3 Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
Smart Drives Senior Member Joined: 06/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 115 |
What about using p for parallel and po for poles or pa for parallel and p for Poles. Unfortunately this is one topic i dont think you will ever get everyone to agree on. What about you nut out 2 systems and then take a vote ? Cam. All smart drive parts sold Custom built turbine parts on Multicam flatbed CNC Router |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Changing terminology is confusing but, the number of poles is usually a constant, eg 42, or 36. The number of poles in series "s" can change with a F&P rewire. This results in a change in the number of "p" parallel strings of these poles in series. The original abreviation using "p" for the number of series poles is confusing. I never looked at the previous abreviations. I have always used "s" series and "p" parallel for other components like resistors or capacitors. Inductors just followed logically. I always needed to reread early threads where poles were discussed, rather than parallel strings. This was confusing. As I mentioned above, it does not seem justified to resort to a complicated shorthand, as there are not that many combinations. The only difficulty appears to be that "p" has been used to describe "poles". The poles is really a constant, and the number of series poles "s" and the parallel strings "p" is a more logical description. I don't have a F&P any more, so this is a bit academic for me now. Not much you can do with 9 coils in a 3phase OzAxFx system. I suppose 3phase star 3s, or 3phase star 3p , or 3phase delta 3s, or 3phase delta 3p. Spelling it out is not too difficult either. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
The problem I'm having is originally we were using the p to represent poles. Someone, I dont know who, and it doesn't matter, started using s to represent poles, and p to represent parallel. This has caused confusion, to the point where a couple of members have see 7s2p and modified the stator as a 7p2p, which is a 7 phase 2 pole conversion, nothing like a 7 pole ( s ) 2 parallel conversion. And guess who cops the email about that one. The thread F&P Voltage is a classic case, a 7s2p becomes a 2p7s, and in the end the interested member is directed to the page about wiring up a 7 phase 2 pole, not what he wants to do, but if he's a newbie he will end going down the wrong path. Anyway, I'm trying to avoid rewriting web pages and redoing the graphics, that stuff takes time, and maybe stop the emails asking me to explain the difference between the different schemes. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
| Smart Drives Senior Member Joined: 06/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 115 |
I dont know if this is a good idea for or you or not, but if you think this will snowball and drive you nutty maybe put a link under "post reply" with "F&P wiring descriptions" so people who come to the forum automaticaly will see it. It might save you a lot of emails. Cam. All smart drive parts sold Custom built turbine parts on Multicam flatbed CNC Router |
||||
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Glenn, why use abbreviations in the first place? I see nothing wrong with spelling out short words like pole or phase in full. Some people might think they are talking smart by using lots of abbreviations but in the end all it does is causing confusion to many, myself included, as this thread shows. Klaus |
||||
| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hi Glenn, Good to see the forum going full steam ahead,, I think it's a great forum .. As for this configuration stream, I'm with "Tinker" --lets just spell out the configurations in full ,this will help the new guys . Great forum,Great Crew, Bruce Bushboy |
||||
| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
Hi Bruce, good to hear from you. Yes I agree with Tinker and Gordon that we may as well use the full description and not abreviations, but people are what we are and do tend to abreviate anyway. I'm trying to avoid letter been used for two different things. p can mean poles or parallel. S can mean series connected or series as in model, ie 80S, 60S. p for parallel doesnt make sense if its a single string, as can happen in a 14 poles in series or a staggered stator where you may have some string in parallel and some not. The 60S,3pX2,4pX1 staggered stator example above makes sense, but 60S,3SP2,4SP1 is confusing, how to do you have 1 in parallel. I think I might just draw up the different configuration and give them names like fred, bob and tim.  The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
herbnz Senior Member Joined: 18/02/2007 Location: New ZealandPosts: 258 |
Hi To throw aspanner in the works, I never reconnect its much quicker easier to rewire. This, to me means I am not interested in codes that show connection methods, rather I convert to turns / phase or in fact when lazy turns / pole. ie a common unit 100sp is 7 pairs in series or to me 44 turns *2 = 88 turns /phase or 6 turns /pole. A code that showed turns /phase would suit me better but then I am a loner on this I suspect Herb |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Glenn, I started using "p" for parallel strings I think. Anyway, in the above example, I would use Series60-3phase-star-3s2p-4s, but are there spare poles left? I had also thought that due to the small number of combinations that a simple numbering, 1., 2., 3., etc with a description might even work. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Glenn , I think Tom Dick & Harry would be better names  PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Phill, Harry, Larry & Moe could tag along. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
OK, this is what I have come up with. Its a combination of the suggestions. Each pole or coil is refered to as C ( coil ). I was thinking of abreviating "Poles In Series", but that ends up as PIS, so forget that. Using S and P to describe poles in series is too confusing for beginners. So if its 7 coils in series, its a 7C Number of strings is X ( times, multiplied ). Parallel doesnt work becasue there may not be any strings in parallel, such as a 14 poles in series or staggered stators. A X1 makes it clear there is only one string. So if we have 7 coils in series, times 2, then its a 7CX2. 14 poles in series would be a 14CX1. A good old 2 pole series parallel would be a 2CX7, thats 2 coils in series, times 7. A staggered stator could be 3CX2 4CX2. Naming the number of phases is only really needed for 7 phase configuration, optional on 3 phase. Since 7 phase is a rarity, just use the full word "phase" So a 7 phase 3 pole ( 7p3p ) would be called a 7phase 3CX2 I will put together a web page with all the combinations and label each one with its appropiate code. So if someone is confused they can refer back to the page, and should pick it up fairly quickly. How does that sound? Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Looks OK Gizmo. C for s, and X for p is OK. I would not put the letters together though. X is used for multiply, even though parallel is essentially multiply as well. The 3 phase 7 series coils with 2 sets of coils could be 7c2x this could be read as 7 series coils 2 times. [3phase is assumed]. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
It would appear to be simple enough and should work. Then any system will work if people stick to a format and not try to introduce their own codes. I think it would make a lot of sense if the combination of what someone was talking about was spelt out in long hand text in the beguining of a posting and then revert to using a code throughout. This is done in most articals so as to save confusion and will help if the code is used incorrectly. Where did you put the web page??? Pete. Sometimes it just works |
||||
| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5123 |
Havn't made it yet. It will be viewable from the contents and glossary pages. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
||||
| Page 1 of 2 |
|||||
 Print this page |
 |
The Back Shed's forum code is written, and hosted, in Australia. | © JAQ Software 2025 |
