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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : EtherCAT (Beckhoff, etc.)
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bigmik Guru  Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2950 |
Hi All, @Tinine, I assume a "PAT Tester" is an electrical "test and tag" bloke and/or equipment? I am a licensed Test and Tag tester. And I am not an electrician. The sole requirement, besides passing the simple course, was to be a "competent person". I don't know why I was deemed as such.  Still its funny about left ear touching 240V. As to USA and never hearing about it, 1. They only use 110v compared to our 220/240v so maybe it isn't considered as important. 2. Electrical safety (at least over here in Oz) seems to have been only taken seriously from around 10 years ago. And still wasn't compulsory when I retired 3 years ago, (however insurance was an issue if it wasn't performed on a regular basis.) Take care all and don't go sticking your left ear into any electrical equipment. Kind Regards, Mick Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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| Andrew_G Guru Joined: 18/10/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 871 |
Hi Mick, (I hope this is not too far off topic). Long time no hear. My dear late-ex-father-in-law ALWAYS kept one hand in his pocket when working anywhere near mains. He also passed the back of his hand near any suss equipment. The hairs stand up and you feel a tingle (and if shocked you can't 'grab' it). It saved his life several times. The one I recall (at least 30 years ago) was an imported German top-of-the range tumble dryer being wired internally with earth and mains swapped - it worked but he sensed something (back of the hand) and checked it. Would have killed his wife. (He had degrees in Electrical and Mechanical Engineering and held several patents. Boy he would have loved MMBasic and MMites). Cheers, Andrew |
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CaptainBoing Guru Joined: 07/09/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2170 |
Morning Mick... family well? yep. same thing. In UK, everything in a commercial or industrial setting has to be periodically tested at the point of "plug in", yearly is common but I have seen 3 years on the sticker (tag) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_appliance_testing A common misconception have fun h |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
Yeah but the 240v AC in this case wasn't obvious to him because it was one leg of the 3-phase that was exposed. Both hands in pockets wouldn't have done a darned thing  Craig |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7938 |
Going more or less back to the topic of this thread, and thinking of remote IO systems, I wondered if something like poor-man's EtherCat could be done on the PicoMite. Take one PicoMite and connect two pins to the RO and DI pins of a MAX485. Both sides are permanently enabled. You can then connect a string of these in a series loop. Using these buffers allows the loop to cover a sensible area without running into noise problems. The first is the master and sends data round the loop until it gets it back on the other pin. It's just bit-banged at a fixed frequency. I've not really thought out the software side much, but I envisage it to be based on a shift register in each PicoMite, receive into one end and transmit from the other. Packets of only a few bytes - probably only one or two actual data bytes to keep the speed up. A PicoMite would receive until it recognized its address then copy the data bytes and replace them with it's data to be returned and carry on bit-banging it out. It probably needs a synch byte or something as the loop speed can't get too high due to unknown delays at each stage (unless a PIO could be persuaded to do it?). Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 5091 |
If you want to get closer to ethercat, you use a pio sequencer to A/ copy data in to data out B/ shift data in for evaluation When you need to send a reply, disable the coupling and shift data out through the data out. So basically a standard uart with hardware bridge between data in and data out. PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
Exists for the Prop-1 running at 80MHz. I believe that the network runs at >8Mbaud. Prop-2 would be much, much faster. Attached zipped files can be read as text. High Speed Prop to Prop.zip Craig |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7938 |
That's not the point, Craig. It could be even faster using FPGAs, but neither run MMBasic. You can use a Prop if you like. Wireless is even faster. I'm thinking of cheap I/O and sacrificing speed. :) You're going to be restricted by the speed of the buffers and cable capacitance anyway. It doesn't matter how fast your processing is. Cheap buffers don't run fast. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
Mick, Does the ESP32/8266 run MMBasic? No. Is it still of use to the Micromite user? Big players such as Galil and Trio have a Basic interpreter on the front end and ARM, FPGAs handling the real-time stuff. I do the same but with a Propeller instead of the above unobtainium. Maybe you haven't noticed all the posts where people struggle with the performance limitations of a single-task interpreter. Not something I ever need to worry about. Craig |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
Yeah but you're spending (& can justify/afford) quite a bit more money. Why bit bang this stuff? Can't the pico's uarts be used? John |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7938 |
@Craig The ESP is of no use whatsoever to *this* Micromite user. :) There isn't really a speed problem here. There isn't even an implementation problem as there's been no attempt to implement anything. It's not even a design-in-progress. I doubt very much if any company is going to allow the Pico to be the controller for one of their machines anyway. It's not an industrial device. You don't trust thousands of pounds-worth of machinery and possibly someone's life to a $1 single-sourced controller chip. No-one is likely to make any money out of it. lol Yes, you can implement this idea in much better ways - as has been proved already if you are willing to spend the $$$ - but that's so boring. :) @JohnS My theory is that bit-banging will be more efficient as the packets are bit-based rather than bytes. Also there is no CRLF to bother about, which saves two transmitted bytes for every node. It's only mind games... Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
This argument totally baffles me. The cost of a microcontroller: It's the cost of lunch at cheapie Wetherspoons which lasts for a few minutes and then where does it end up? We are all here every day, why? Because we love this stuff. Cost/fun ratio is huge.....but then we balk at a couple of quid? How much is a TV licence again? I wouldn't know because I haven't had an idiot box for 12 years Craig |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
A fair few are hobbyists interested in doing things well, as cheaply as possible. There's not much challenge in just throwing money at a problem. John |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
That's a huge file - is there a simple summary please? John |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
The old "owt fer nowt" while the language creator could be billing four figures per day as a consultant  Craig Edited 2022-02-28 01:54 by Tinine |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7938 |
I'm puzzled by *your* view, Craig. The fast, safe, industrial grade system has already been developed and is on sale now. There's no point in attempting any competition with that, using Picos or Props or whatever. The patents are in place. If you want the proper stuff you pay for it. This *isn't*, and can never be, a commercial venture so commercial costs simply don't apply. If the non-commercial angle doesn't float your boat then so be it. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7938 |
I didn't know 'Spoons were doing a lunch for $1 (the cost of a RP2040) or even 3.60 UKP (the cost of a PicoMite). I really must go in there... Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
Mick, Heck, you're missing the 99p pints of Ruddles, "winter special". I didn't think it'd be drinkable but if you blindfolded me and told me I was drinking a "craft ale", I'd believe it  Keep meaning to offer to buy you lunch; I would like to donate my CMM2 to a good home. Can't be bothered to sell/mail it. Craig |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
What started this thread was my customer in Ohio. A huge machinery dealer and they have a lot of machines built by my old Detroit company. They rebuild used machines and put new controls on them. The Beckhoff system that they use costs $42,000 and they bought 20 of these last year. They were supposed to get some last November but they still haven't showed up. They are told that they might receive two units in March. Beckhoff, Siemens, Allen Bradley etc., are crippled by the shortage Customer knows that I am developing a new CNC bender control and now is in a panic to ditch Beckhoff for my system. But he is so accustomed to Beckhoff, he cannot grasp how I can be proposing something at a fraction of his $42K. Going back to my own machines....In the past, they have replaced my old Windows control with Beckhoff but lost some critical features that Beckhoff can't handle. Real-time Windows? I was doing it long before Beckhoff (I did the same with DOS, BTW). At this point I have simply told him to forget and unlearn the Beckhoff propaganda and let's just fit my system to a machine and try it. Patents? No other individual has as many CNC tube bending patents as moi. And I have the BIG one that revolutionised the industry. If you check any manufacturer of CNC tube bending machines, you will find every single one of them boasting about "All Electric" machines and how much better they are than hydraulic. I pioneered this and I have the patent. You will also find "integrated shearing" which saves an absolute fortune in time and material; my invention and my patent. Everybody acts like they came up with it. Electric.pdf Cut-off.pdf |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7938 |
Ah... the thick plottens.... ;) No wonder your customer is so confused. lol I can see your problem with Beckhoff now. Wow - I didn't know the chip shortage was hitting them so badly. I know it was bad, of course, but not to that extent. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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