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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Let's discuss reducing the number of active MMBasic designs
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Mixtel90 Guru  Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
As I said, PSRAM is necessary for some things, but for most people, most of the time it won't be used. It seems silly to use it as a standard if it breaks the logical upgrade path from Pico to Pico 2. If you write software that needs it then you have to bear in mind that you are locking out the majority of users, at least until Raspberry Pi produce a "Pico 3" or something with integrated PSRAM and sell it through their distribution network (I discount the current crop of modules that only meet the standard Raspberry Pi Pico spec and can't be pushed). Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| mozzie Senior Member  Joined: 15/06/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 131 |
G'day, To add another 5c to the mix. Can someone please clarify the following, are we talking about the "Gaming Fraternity" dropping support for some platforms, or support for the platforms being dropped altogether? Whilst it is really up to Peter what platforms will go forward and what will be dropped, I would also like the following to be considered: (And this is in NO WAY a complaint) At this point we have: The original MicroMite that stopped at 5.05.05 MMB4DOS that stopped at 5.05.05 The CMM2 that got to 5.07.02 (I think as I dont own one) MMB4WIN that stopped at 5.07.03 Pico RP2040 that may stop at 6.00.02 Pico RP2350 that may keep going past 6.00.02 The problem then becomes trying to remember what platforms are compatible with what commands. Adding another fork between RP2040 and RP2350 just adds further confusion, and confused is my default state these days....  As someone who has no interest in using the Picomite for "Gaming", my own base platforms are: PicoMite (standard) PicoMite HDMI (non USB) As these can (one day) be built into something with an LCD or HDMI display with the least support components. Once again, just my 5c Regards, Lyle. |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
All versions of the PicoMiteRP2040 will freeze development after the next release as there's no way to push it any further. There is no HDMI facility on the original Pico. The PicoMiteRP2350 will continue in development. There is a list in the latest preliminary release of the manual that shows all the various options. At the moment I think Peter is considering continuing development of all versions of the PicoMiteRP2350. This thread started off with whether he should or not. :) Note that the break would only be in further development of the RP2040-based systems, not abandoning them. There may still be maintenance updates just as there are for some of the other platforms. I'm not a "gamer" either, so I know what you mean. :) I still want to be able to use LCD, VGA and PS2 for some things and HDMI and USB for others. I suspect that further development will mainly be to push the graphics capabilities of HDMI so it's not going to affect me much as I only tinker in software rather than write anything meaningful! To date I've never used layers, sprites, more than 16 colours or more than a couple of MATH commands. lol Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Amnesie Guru Joined: 30/06/2020 Location: GermanyPosts: 554 |
Hello, the whole PSRAM thing (at least for me!) is total nonsense. The actual picoMite firmware, if bugs are fixed, is just perfect. There is no need for more and even more. Let's appreciate what we can do with it! I think the whole picoMite story should come to an end with this version. BUT: this does not mean that I am against further development at all. My dream would be something like MMBASIC for the Raspberry Pi 5 or Zero with ALL it's capability in terms of power for graphics. I think this would be the right thing, instead of squeezing stones with the pico. A nice bonus would be to make MMBASIC work with the Raspberry Pi 5 / Zero GPIO. As an "dead end" I see all the STM-chip versions like the CMM2 - just too pricy, period. I think my theory is proven by the fact that the picoMite is MUCH more prominent because of the extreme low prices. And has ANYONE ever here mentioned that Raspberry Pi has an impressive obsolescence policy? I think the future definitly is raspberry pi, not STM. But as said: this is only my point of view. Greetings Daniel Edited 2025-06-12 02:23 by Amnesie |
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| PhenixRising Guru Joined: 07/11/2023 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1285 |
There is already SmallBASIC for up to Pi4 and the Zero |
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PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 535 |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3339 |
Have you looked a the new release of MMB4L With all the graphics additions? You don't have control of pins except in a limited way with the SYSTEM command and pinctrl or libgpiod helper programs. I don't do a lot with graphics, but I do have it running on a PiZ2W and a Pi4. ~ Edited 2025-06-12 08:18 by lizby PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 535 |
I'm not sure how the RP2350 is in anyway a preferable choice than the CMM2, apart from price. Unless I'm missing something (which I might very well be), the RP2350 has a processor speed of 150Mhz compared to 480MHz on the CMM2, 2MB ram compared to the CMM2's 24MB. One is a low price/power computer, the other a more high end workstation. I'm not saying this to be divisive, I think both are amazing, but they are very different machines with different use-cases. I'm just not sure that I would ever forsake the CMM2, for something that is a fraction of the power (please correct me if my facts are wrong). Even the cost isn't bad when bought in bulk: $65 Canadian (or $47 USD/43 Euro/36 quid) when bought as a quantity of 5. This drops even further when doing larger production runs. Compare that to the price of other retro computers (Commander X16 $350, ZX Spectrum Next $380) Heck, even a mini-Amiga A500 will set you back more than that. So for less than the price of one of those computers, you get five... count em... five, CMM2's. Even if you don't have any friends to give the excess CMM2's to - that's still a bargain. Now, having defended the CMM2's honour, I would like to point out that the CMM2 seems incredibly stable. I think all of the bugs were ironed out a long time ago. I have used it extensively, and I haven't come across any scenario where I wished there was an extra feature, or felt limited by the BASIC. So sure, go ahead and support the RP2350, it doesn't adversely affect the CMM2 in any way.   |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
Completely agreed, Pete. The PicoMite family is very underpowered compared to the CMM2. Lots more RAM - useful fast RAM at that. Price *is* the main issue though, I think. Unit price of CMM2 boards is reasonable but only if you can sell the spare ones from a production run, otherwise it's very expensive. Not many will want them uncased either. To turn them into finished machines you still need relatively expensive cases and front/rear panels. In the PicoMite's defence, I must say that DVI output, the ability to use a USB hub and the presence of the PIOs are pretty good advantages over the CMM2 for many. On a different, off topic, note, I'd still like to see proper support, or as a minimum proper documentation, for the ESP8266-01 in MMBasic. It can be built into a CMM2 or easily attached to a PicoMite yet using it is still a pain in the ass on either platform. Mind you, with so many people insisting that it's useless for anything unless you overwrite the stock firmware I can't ever see that happening. It should be simple - plug it in and it works without any messing about. After all, it's part of the CMM2 just as the RTC and WII ports are isn't it? . Edited 2025-06-12 17:36 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4981 |
Hi Mick, The ESP8266 is also limited in memory, that is why there is ESP-32. For 8266 there is a variety of software written for it targeted to a specific function. And if you buy a 8266 from any chinese site, can you know what "stock" firmware this vendor uses? So updating the 8266 to a pre-defined version that works with the CMM2 is THE way to go. And this version should be compatible with the CMM2 WIFI support built in (does it support all the webmite functions?). For someone to define this, and document in a CMM2 application manual. I recall there where some that had some form of WIFI connection working on CMM2 (the polish guy who also sold a supreme version of CMM2 .. Pjotr ?). But speaking of 8266... I recall someone was playing with 8266 and ESP-NOW. Apparently you can create a wireless serial connection between pico and cmm2 with ESP-NOW, without intervention of a WIFI hotspot. That would be a nice application (that I would embrace and use if I can find useable documentation). I know I have 2 ESP-01S programmed once to do this, but never got it to work (lack if persistence from my side, I think). Volhout Edited 2025-06-12 18:34 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| ManiB Senior Member Joined: 12/10/2019 Location: GermanyPosts: 126 |
I have been able to assemble 5 sets of the current PicoMite HDMI/USB here in Germany for €60 each. Incl. housing and panels, shipping and tax. I have currently done this with the CMM2G2V2. But this time 10 sets and come to the same price: 60,- € |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
My point is that if you are going to have somewhere to connect a ESP8266-01S then there should be at least minimal support for it so that it can be used from within MMBasic. :) There isn't even documentation. You may as well fit a IDE connector or a Centronics port. All ESP8266-01S *should* work in their default mode as supplied, if not they are faulty and only fit for scrap or returning for replacement. The firmware may be completely different, but the default mode should always work. It's very crude and has no bells and whistles. It won't even go into programming mode on the CMM2 so you can't change anything. However, it should be easy enough to make a little adapter for the socket to make programming possible temporarily so that at least the IP address can be set. Nothing else is needed AFAIK. It doesn't matter that the RAM is limited as it's only a COM-WiFi adapter in its most basic form, which is how it should be supported. The ESP32 is overkill for this and there isn't a connector for one anyway. If it is necessary to change the firmware to make it compatible with the CMM2 then it should be possible to do this from within the CMM2 environment, possibly using a stand-alone program, script or something. And it shouldn't depend on searching the internet for a particular version of the new firmware, you get what's provided in the CMM2 package otherwise you are on your own and can work out your own interface software. Anyway, that's the end of my rant. I'm very sorry for going so far off topic, but for me this is an important aspect of the CMM2 and, in fact, any systems. If you are going to include hardware then make sure the firmware supports it. It's like the Commodore 64 all over again and we've moved on from that c**ppy method of controlling hardware. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10164 |
The ESP8266 is fully supported on the CMM2 - it's called the Basic language - just send AT strings to the ESP and it does what you ask it to. I've previously posted a number of examples of how to do this including running simple websites |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
@ ManiB If you only needed one you now have the problem of finding buyers for all the spare ones, otherwise that single one has cost you a fortune! There will be postage to pay on them too, so your buyers will obviously be paying more even if you sell at cost. In the UK the case for the CMM2 costs me £9.55 plus £9.99 delivery if the order is less than £40. That's a very expensive enclosure now. I would have to buy a minimum of 5 cases really. I don't order enough from Farnell to make it worthwhile. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
It won't respond to AT strings on the CMM2 though, will it Peter? Isn't it stuck in passthrough mode, not the programming mode that it needs for AT strings? Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4981 |
Link please... Maybe from the thread, we can copy-paste and make a short user manual. That is what Mick is looking for (and I myself would also use it). Volhout Edited 2025-06-12 20:40 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10164 |
Can't remember but either way you just send +++ to exit passthrough. It is TRIVIAL to use!!! |
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| PhenixRising Guru Joined: 07/11/2023 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1285 |
I'm loving this smorgasbord  So much power and flexibility  |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7745 |
Oh - I don't remember seeing +++ in the ESP info that I had. I'll have another look. I thought it had to be hard-wired for AT+ commands. Edit: Ah, hard-wiring GPIO0 to GND is needed to flash different firmware. It looks like AT+ commands might well be ok. I have about 60 pages of official ESP8266 AT+ commands.... Edited 2025-06-12 21:36 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10164 |
https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewTopic.php?TID=13414&P=1 |
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