Thought I should close down any further discussion re MMBasic

Adds c300K to the firmware just for the wifi handler without any MMbasic code. Any bluetooth at a later date would be even more.
Uses > 20K of RAM reducing program and variable space. Unclear whether this is heap or statically allocated - details sketchy
Uses one PIO - details sketchy
Uses interrupts - details sketchy
Current example programs do not use USB - why? - incompatible?
Incompatible with other boards and/or programs that use GP23,24,25,29
CPU overhead, impact on CPU1 (VGA) - details sketchy
Almost certainly needs a separate binary (x2 for VGA) - maintenance overhead
No MMbasic command or function slots free

Accessing an ESP8266 using AT commands is much simpler
Edited 2022-07-04 23:15 by matherp

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I sort of figured this would be the conclusion... It's not surprising and I agree that even they should have used ESP versus what they did. (but then I assume they also wanted Bluetooth... whatever.)

The maker industry adopted ESP... but why should Raspberry Pi?  ;-P

And there you have it....
I also expected as much.
But Peter has surprised us before in the past, so till I heard it from him, I was not totally ruling it out, but still thought it highly unlikely.  

You really don't gain anything by having dedicated commands that are translated by the interpreter to send AT commands. You can still only send them at the same baud rate so there's no speed penalty. A serial device is still only going to talk to the world very slowly in digital terms so your program still sits in loops waiting for things to happen.

Sending the AT commands is easy if you write a SUB with a corresponding FUNCTION to get a value back. After that, additional SUBs will make the thingy do exactly what you want - no matter whose version of the AT command set it uses. A tweak to the AT command strings and your program will work with a different device - with no major re-writing.

Completely agree.

EDIT: It would be like me saying I want specific MMBASIC commands for talking to SimCom modules that I use for sending text messages on our cellphone network.  It is all done in AT commands, so I just have some SUB's to deal with common things, using the SimCom AT command set manual.
Edited 2022-07-05 16:56 by Grogster

  Mixtel90 said  

You really don't gain anything by having dedicated commands that are translated by the interpreter to send AT commands.

If you looked at Annex Basic, you would see how much you could gain. Among a good many other things, the functionality of being able to email myself readings from a remote sensor via wifi is paramount for me--I have a dozen or so sensors in places where wiring would be awkward at the least.

But I understand Peter's points and accept that it's not going to happen on the PicoMite.

~
Edited 2022-07-05 22:35 by lizby

Don't know if I'm off on a tangent here because I haven't done anything with my ESPs yet but I do know that you can program them in BASIC, using B4R (OK, you also have to use the Arduino environment).

Whether this is of any use with the PicoMite, I dunno.

I do know that it's compiled and not a dog like Annex .


Craig

Rather than a separate esp32, there are these:
WIZnet
Uses the 'AT' command set over serial, has 16MB flash and more.
Relatively cheap, anyone played with these?
led

  lizby said  

If you looked at Annex Basic, you would see how much you could gain. Among a good many other things, the functionality of being able to email myself readings from a remote sensor via wifi is paramount for me

You can do that using any WiFi device such as the ESP32 or ESP8266.

John

Any RF module that needs dedicated pins for linking to a PicoMite means that the combination isn't a PicoMite. As soon as you use pins that are normally available you've potentially broken existing software. I suspect that some are going to realize this when they start to use the Pico W.

If you want Wi-fi nodes, web servers etc. then there are far better ways to do it than trying to hang an RF module onto a RP2040 - it doesn't have the RAM you need really and isn't usually supplied with all that much flash either. Get an ESP and use a native BASIC or whatever on that and you'll get better results.

Once again, Annex is almost certainly a dog inside. It has lots of commands, yes, but I bet they are simply front-ends for AT strings that you could just as easily send over a normal COM port from a 28-pin Micromite if you so wished - and at the same speed. If not, it has to be working at register level and is consequently unusable with anything but a single chip (or a small number of them from the same manufacturer).

  JohnS said  

You can do that using any WiFi device such as the ESP32 or ESP8266.

True enough, but why use the Picomite and an ESP when the ESP will do it on its own?

  lizby said  

  JohnS said  

You can do that using any WiFi device such as the ESP32 or ESP8266.

True enough, but why use the Picomite and an ESP when the ESP will do it on its own?

Then use the ESP.

I got the impression you wanted to use a Pico. If you do then for WiFi etc you'll need to add a WiFi chip (or don't use MMBasic).

John

  Mixtel90 said  

Once again, Annex is almost certainly a dog inside.

Really, I don't see any reason to sl*g it like that. Yes, it's slower than the Picomite, but for many purposes you don't need that speed. Part of the appeal of Basic is that if it's fast enough, you don't need to care how it's implemented behind the scenes.  If it isn't fast enough, there are lots of choices.

  Quote  

It has lots of commands, yes, but I bet they are simply front-ends for AT strings that you could just as easily send over a normal COM port from a 28-pin Micromite.

This makes no sense to me at all. I think it's probably objectively wrong (after all, there are ESP SDKs), and even if it were true, you can't "easily" with a micromite send an email using an attached wifi device whether ESP or other.

(For some reason, the forum is changing s l a g to sl*g--I've tried correcting it twice. Strange.)

~
Edited 2022-07-06 01:01 by lizby

  JohnS said  

I got the impression you wanted to use a Pico. If you do then for WiFi etc you'll need to add a WiFi chip (or don't use MMBasic).

I would love to use a wifi-enabled micromite. But there isn't one, so I actually do use Annex Basic on ESP in anger, even though I prefer playing with MMBasic.

  lizby said  

  JohnS said  

I got the impression you wanted to use a Pico. If you do then for WiFi etc you'll need to add a WiFi chip (or don't use MMBasic).

I would love to use a wifi-enabled micromite. But there isn't one

It would be any 'mite with a WiFi chip (on SPI, I2C, COM or whatever).

It's almost as if you don't realise that email is just one use of TCP/IP and can be done on any WiFi (or other) device which does TCP/IP.

John

They are two different things though. The 'Mites are designed to be either 1980's home computer look-alikes or simple embedded control platforms. Neither of these would use Wi-fi or Bluetooth, but you could potentially use them by treating them as a modem.

There are other devices that are designed to do those jobs more efficiently. It's horses for courses - you use the right tool for the job, even if they do use different languages. After all, you might, for example, need something that's extremely fast where only a compiler would do. You couldn't use MMBasic for that.

Hmmm, wishlist:

      WiFi (for email, remote access, internet)
      Bluetooth
      Touchscreen
      Powerful, high-res graphics
      Gigabytes of memory
      Gigahertz processor
      Battery backup
      On-board, open-source, BASIC interpreter
      Low-cost

Now let me think....Got it!

Android tablet running RFO-BASIC and with TeamViewer or Airdroid loaded and set-up in "Kiosk" mode to restrict access. The perfect front-end for a MCU  




Craig

Edit: Forgot to mention audio  
Edited 2022-07-06 01:53 by Tinine

  JohnS said  

It's almost as if you don't realise that email is just one use of TCP/IP and can be done on any WiFi (or other) device which does TCP/IP.

The fact that I cite one use that is important to me doesn't imply that I don't know of other uses, or that Annex doesn't support them, or that I haven't used them.

  Mixtel90 said  

simple embedded control platform

Exactly what Annex on an ESP8266 or ESP32 can be--except with an ability to interact wirelessly with other devices.

  Tinine said  

Hmmm, wishlist: ... Android tablet running RFO-BASIC and with TeamViewer or Airdroid loaded and set-up in "Kiosk" mode to restrict access. The perfect front-end for a MCU

And perfect for controlling an ESP device running Annex. That's how I've used it (except plain android and a browser). We're on the same page, I think.

~
Edited 2022-07-06 02:01 by lizby