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Forum Index : Other Stuff : brexit, brexit, brexit,

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isochronic
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Joined: 21/01/2012
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Posted: 08:24am 21 Mar 2019
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Q. Wots for brexit ?

A. erm, n ex

(Don't blame me )

it just keeps going on, and on, and ...


 
Grogster

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Joined: 31/12/2012
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Posted: 10:39pm 21 Mar 2019
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I know.

Careful though. Gizmo does not like political threads.....
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
isochronic
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Posted: 08:22am 23 Mar 2019
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I have this nagging suspicion, that although we live in the "multiverse", and the number of universes is infinite, in Britain they form queues Edited by chronic 2019-03-24
 
JohnS
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Posted: 07:41am 04 Apr 2019
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Please guys - have pity!!

(There appear to be no good outcomes....)

John
 
CaptainBoing

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Posted: 10:50am 04 Apr 2019
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I can't remember a time when i witnessed such blatant lying and turn-coatery

I am genuinely heartbroken for the future of UK. It is no coincidence that "despair "is the root word of desperation - people do crazy sh*t because they feel they have no alternative and no-one will listen. Expect bad times ahead.
 
JohnS
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Posted: 06:24pm 04 Apr 2019
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"Cheer up," they said, "things could get worse."

So I cheered up.

And things got worse.

John
 
Grogster

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Posted: 09:18pm 04 Apr 2019
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I will just say this: The majority voted to LEAVE. Why does your PM repeatedly try to do deals to keep you in the EU? The Government is SUPPOSED to be there, to carry out the will of the people. I tend to think that she is perhaps the worst thing to happen to the UK since Thatcher, and that's saying quite a bit. I won't post any more on this one, as I know threads like this are a bit borderline. But that's my 2c.
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
JohnS
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Posted: 07:03am 05 Apr 2019
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Well....

Her deal (*) does not seek to keep us in the EU.

(*) strictly it is not a deal - it is phase 1 of a 2-phase process, being a Withdrawal Agreement (which includes a transition period) to be followed by an ongoing deal (whose negotiation has yet to begin I think). This 2-step process was agreed early on. (Probably an error but it was a stout Leaver who arranged its adoption.)

Some people have interpreted it to be such a thing, incorrectly, but it is not what it is meant to be. It can degenerate into an odd situation should phase 2 not work out in a timely manner. And with the situation of rabid leavers/remainers/arguers/etc anything may occur I guess.

I think I've got this right, but it's quite confusing especially as there's so much fake news about it.

It's all not helped by the fact that anything agreed cannot overturn existing binding legal treaties, laws, etc (such as any regarding Northern Ireland).

The above being said I am no fan at all of the PM, who failed to consult about the form Brexit should take, failed to take the UK people with her to the extent that she failed to get a majority in her ill-judged General Election, and so on. Nevertheless I would not accuse her of trying to not Leave.

Sorry if this is the kind of post not allowed...

JohnEdited by JohnS 2019-04-06
 
isochronic
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Posted: 10:19pm 05 Apr 2019
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To make democracies more effective, I am wondering if management of countries should be like the PID systems used to implement system management.

A PID usually controls using proportional and integrated methods as a reasonably effective system, some have extra methods as well. Roughly said, the proportional change provides rapid response, and the integral based change provides better matching based on longer term appraisal.

There is a parallel in many countries where there is say one group of politicians that debate and suggest laws, and then another group that acts long-term to review the laws before implementation. In Aus they are the "lower house" and the Senate. The lower house responds to change first, then the senate moderates things.

But elections are more or less on-the-spot so we often get transient or placebo democracy it seems ! So I am wondering if voting for the lower house should be as usual - so it can respond to issues - and voting for the Senate should be a steady ongoing rate. EG say you vote every third birthday, or when you renew something regularish like a drivers license or whatever. - with some clause triggering automatic elections if the senate has been unpopular for a long time.

It still doesn't solve gridlocked governments though.
 
JohnS
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Posted: 06:16am 06 Apr 2019
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Sounds better than what we have!

Here it tends to lurch from semi-extreme to semi-extreme, with really daft policies from time to time. This is not helped by usually only having 2 main parties. (We have others but they're small, though the LibDems briefly had more. Let's not go there!)

It's an unlikely change, though, as STEM people are quite rare here in politics and in any case the resistance to changing any of the historical ways of doing things is huge. (E.g. they still vote in person by trudging through the lobbies, have to attend the "house" in person (no skype etc) and so on.)

There are some positives to our system but we're really seeing the negatives right now.

I think we need a compromise. A very loaded word politically, it seems.

JohnEdited by JohnS 2019-04-07
 
CaptainBoing

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Posted: 06:50am 06 Apr 2019
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  chronic said  
It still doesn't solve gridlocked governments though.

UK.gov is only gridlocked because they are talking the talk but not walking the walk. All the stuff they said two years ago is now gone... "leave means leave" "No deal is better than a bad deal" etc... The last one isn't even being thought about as a possible outcome anymore... it is "off the table". They'll continue to delay and then another and then another... all the time hoping it will just go away.

On the morning of 24 June I was amazed to see the way the referendum had gone, I made a rather rash statement (with witnesses dammit) of "B*ll*cks! they'll never take us out... I'll eat my underpants if it happens" I am still wearing and not eating them

I think the outcome was unexpected all round and now gov has to find a way of not doing it (because that doesn't fit with the master plan) without letting on that they aren't going to do it. There is no happy outcome and this has split UK into two camps. I see unpleasantness coming because of it. Regardless of where we are, I really believe that staying in would have been better than the "deal" PM May is trying to push through where UK will have no say in EU, but have to obey all its decisions, still all UK's natural resources "belong" to EU, have to pay in £Billions each year with no mechanism to dispute the amount and we won't be able to make our own trade deals... I don't see that as leaving, it is staying in but in a neutered state and when examined is very similar to the state poor Germany found itself in after the first world war - and look what happened there... if you keep a people oppressed, it fosters resentment which breeds nationalism and then it all goes pop when it boils over.

We are the laughing stock of the world and who can blame them?

My absolute last 2p... I come here to play microcontrollers

Edited by CaptainBoing 2019-04-07
 
zaphod

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Joined: 03/06/2018
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Posted: 09:40am 06 Apr 2019
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The problem we have is quite simple, our democracy is seriously broken!

At the last general election both main parties stated the would uphold the referendum result, in practice neither are.

Many MP's who represent majority leave constituencies are voting against the wishes of there own electorate.

There is no means of removing an MP who is not behaving in the interests of there constituents.

There is no means of removing a government that is not abiding by there election promises.

There is amazingly no way of removing a prime minister who consistently lies to parliament and the people.

We are stuck with some stupid 5 year election cycle that clearly unfit for purpose.

We are stuck with first past the post that favors only two parties with most of the seats in Parliament.

Of course you could say that's our constitution but as it is merely based on precedent rather than being written it is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. The present situation is unheard of in modern history and makes this country not only a laughing stock but also unfit for purpose.

Irrespective of the present mess our constitution needs a radical overhaul to ensure those with there snouts in the trough never again override the views of the electorate THEY SERVE.

Cheers Roger
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JohnS
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Posted: 10:17am 06 Apr 2019
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  zaphod said   The problem we have is quite simple, our democracy is seriously broken!


Yes, or at least arguably yes.

  zaphod said   Many MP's who represent majority leave constituencies are voting against the wishes of there own electorate.


Yes. But they're allowed to - with potential consequences.
hmm, actually they may not be voting against those wishes because many wished for promised but impossible things and might (might) have voted differently had they known that for sure.

  zaphod said   There is no means of removing an MP who is not behaving in the interests of there constituents.


I believe that's false. Look up "recall".

  zaphod said   There is amazingly no way of removing a prime minister who consistently lies to parliament and the people.


Definitely false.

  zaphod said   We are stuck with some stupid 5 year election cycle that clearly unfit for purpose.


Also false - we recently had an election after well under 5 years.

  zaphod said   We are stuck with first past the post that favors only two parties with most of the seats in Parliament.


Usually, though we did recently have a coalition and currently the tories don't have a majority - not that that's a big issue as they are in effect 2 or 3 parties jammed into one, thus their (and our) problems.

  zaphod said   Of course you could say that's our constitution but as it is merely based on precedent rather than being written it is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. The present situation is unheard of in modern history and makes this
country not only a laughing stock but also unfit for purpose.


False - it is written. Not conveniently in one place unless you pick up Erskine May or the like and I wouldn't like to say it's an easy read.

  zaphod said   Irrespective of the present mess our constitution needs a radical overhaul to ensure those with there snouts in the trough never again override the views of the electorate THEY SERVE.


Actually, they REPRESENT us. They are NOT delegates and strictly speaking do not serve us in the way a delegate would. They make up their own mind, presumably taking into account the wishes of the electorate as well as other matters.

Maybe that's a broken system.

JohnEdited by JohnS 2019-04-07
 
JohnS
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Posted: 10:36am 06 Apr 2019
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I thought I'd put a rash guess in as a separate post.

My guess is the UK will leave the political part of the EU but do some sort of on-going deal regarding trade and services (which includes but is not limited to banking-related matters).

Probably the UK will track or accept many EU technical etc standards. Currently we help define them (and may even be able to veto them) and I suppose mostly or entirely that will cease.

Some of the media, particularly of the press, will say this is a sell-out or bad or some such. Look up the ownership of each one that takes that line and think about their reasons.

We allow a "free press" which means they can have an agenda (and do).

Some politicians will do similar and their reasons mostly can be discerned.

Many parts of the UK feel unloved, left-behind, etc. In the future it will be apparent that only our politicians are to blame, not the EU.

I don't know if the UK will go on running a deficit and/or trade deficit but I suspect so. Both worry me.

JohnEdited by JohnS 2019-04-07
 
zaphod

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Posted: 12:38pm 06 Apr 2019
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Ahh it seems you are one of these people unable to accept anybody else's opinion without ardently striking down every point!

Several of your answers are completely wrong but as I have no intention of entering a debate with someone so obviously narrow minded I will leave you to figure it out.
Cheers Roger
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JohnS
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Posted: 01:20pm 06 Apr 2019
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That strikes me as a total cop out.

If you'd rather not clutter up the forum send me your views - WITH EVIDENCE - in a PM.

However, if I got any facts wrong I'd rather not leave them wrong here on the forum.

JohnEdited by JohnS 2019-04-07
 
Warpspeed
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Posted: 01:04am 07 Apr 2019
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Hitler rants about Brexit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-1gWw0beww
Cheers, Tony.
 
isochronic
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Posted: 01:19am 11 Apr 2019
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So another six months, to Oct 31. What I wonder about, is what happens wrt large corporates like Airbus, big Pharma, energy/oil, car makers .. I guess the economy of the EEC has largely evolved depending on them, do the corporates now have to straddle a divide? and as a formality will the UK require additional standards from say ISO ?
 
Clockmanfr

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Posted: 07:34am 11 Apr 2019
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Here we go again,......

I am British living in France, my boys are schooled in France, Mrs got her doctorate at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, she is even a local Politian haha, So the family is French and has no problem with the transition process to a French Nationality.

Me personally, I am screwed !.

Just at retirement age and I travel backwards and forwards from my Normandy workshops to London with a few items of specialist work every month.

At present even the officials on both sides of the Channel do not know what's going on. With comments from the French officials like, "you will have to sell your house if you don't take French nationality and do the written and oral tests".

Uk officials telling me that I will have to purchase online a visiting Visa each month, and I will have to declare and pay customs duties with paper work online, for my repair equipment that I collect repair and return to London.

Seems to me the bureaucrats are going to be well employed making money by shifting paper work about.

The uncertainty of Brexit is very stressful.

Edited by Clockmanfr 2019-04-12
Everything is possible, just give me time.

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ltopower
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Joined: 08/03/2019
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Posted: 08:46pm 16 Apr 2019
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"leave means leave" has same meaning as "nothing means nothing". Great words to say repeatedly, which actually meant, wel... nothing...

"no deal is better than a bad deal" - who said we must have a deal ?

The whole Brexit debate is hugely misrepresented (and politically abused misrepresentation) due to the complexities of trying to unwind decades of integration with the rest of Europe.

Take one simple relatively unreported issue, namely the European Emissions scheme for CO2. Europe cut the UK out of the system (Q1 2019) "before" any brexit date and is now causing UK businesses to have cashflow issues (Corus requesting £100m for example).

Car manufacturing (Japanese) closing shop in the UK and then being blamed on Brexit uncertainty rather than having all to do with Japan signing a free trade deal with the EU in Q4 2018, which then meant they no longer had to manufacture in the UK to sell cars into Europe.

Politics these days seems far to shallow and lacking Politicians who know how to form a real debate rather than just blind grandstanding on false promises and words. "Brexit means Brexit".

The one critical mistake and damage that politicians have done with the whole Brexit debate is that they have managed to give the far right more support than Hitler could probably have done in the same timeframe. Selfish fools.Edited by ltopower 2019-04-18
 
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