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Forum Index : EV's : Electric cars a waste of money
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| dwyer Guru  Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 573 |
Hi Members News for you to read and now you make your own judgement about Electric cars a waste of money o Electric cars a waste of money · By Karla Pincott · 25 June 2010 · While a fan of fuel-cell vehicles like the Clarity (above), Honda's Thomas Brachmann doesn’t have much time for electric cars. It’s a waste of money to buy an electric car in Australia, says Honda technology expert Thomas Brachmann. As the senior engineer in the Honda's European research and development facility, Brachmann is a fan of fuel cell vehicles like the Honda Clarity, but he doesn’t have much time for battery-electric cars like the Mitsubishi iMiEV and Nissan Leaf. Especially for a hot climate like ours, which presents a lose-lose situation because heat undermines a battery’s ability to take on full charge. And to keep it cool, you have to draw on its reserves of that charge – and of range. "It’s first of all a waste of money to buy an electric car, because the hotter it is, the more auxiliaries you have – the airconditioning, everything is running on electricity," Brachmann says. "And the more you demand, the more is consumed, and the less range you have. "For one specific electric vehicle already on the market and maybe also sold in France, ranges have been measured in the one car between 37 and 100km, depending on conditions." Brachmann thinks the heat poses a severe limitation for the vehicles in Australia, especially in our summer months – or for anybody who has to park outside. "The optimum temperature range the battery would most like to live in is between 10 and 35-40 degrees maximum," he says. Anything outside that, and you start losing efficiency in charging – or have to chew into the charge to aircondition the battery’s surroundings. "If you park your car in an area where the battery can heat up, then you have to take measures to protect the battery," Brachmann says. "Either it has to be under cover, or the system has temperature sensors and initiates its own cooling – but draws on its power reserve to do so." He says that means either a roof of solar cells, or having to stay plugged into a charging source while parked so a cooling system can keep the battery in shape. Brachmann says our climate will also make any visions of quick-charging infrastructure equally difficult. "For the quick-charging systems one has to also understand that quick-charging requires quite temperate battery," he says. "The temperature of the battery should not be too high, otherwise it does not pick up any of the additional energy from the grid – or quick-charging turns out to be slow-charging. There are ideas existing that you drive to the next filling station where you can recharge your car on fast-fill, go for a coffee (while you wait) and then you can continue for another 100km. But it will happen that one coffee will become three coffees or four or five..." And Brachmann says the alternative 'refueling' system for battery-electric cars – the battery swapping station – is not a convenient solution either. "Battery-swapping infrastructure is not so easy because then all carmakers have to agree on one battery format," he says. "Or a dealership is providing the swapping and that requires quick connectors – half an hour is the maximum we think a customer would be happy with." But he says most of the batteries being designed for battery-electric cars will take much longer than that to swap over. "You can have a fast-swap system if you have a battery that requires a cooling circuit – if it is air-cooled – this would not be a problem. But none of the energy density batteries (planned for future electric vehicles) will be air-cooled." All the best from Dwyer |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dwyer My experience in playing with electric cars to compete with existing cars is a complete failure, as far as I am concerned the battery powered car is ideal for a town car with a total range at 60 klm hr of 80 Klm. This in will limit usage but it also reflects the average time and distance most people use in the city and suburbs. Trevs hilux is a good example of a almost comparable vehicle, providing that the range isnt exceeded. The cost however and the value added profits, and taxes imposed by government would make his car worth a $100,000 to produce unless done in China for the next few years. We could go two ways. 1: a small runabout town car with charger docking in carparks. 2: A normal size hybrid system as the Toyota has. The first would satisfy the needs of most people in the city but be useless for serious motoring. The second has the potential to do most transport tasks but is limited in gains in economy and pollution, and forget pulling a trailer as that really kills the concept. The extra cost of the hybrid car compared to a normal petrol or diesel powered car would pay the fuel costs of the conventional car for ten years, and the cost of battery replacement in that time would make it worse. The electronic controls needed would be lucky to survive the 10 year period also, more cost. The concept is great but the profits and taxes imposed make it impractical for the person with a normal income struggeling to survive in the economy as it is. Oil prices will be tied to supply and demand as they have been for the last fifty years, and along with environmental concerns it may well be that other forms of transport will evolve. mankind has survived for thousands of years without cars as we know them, so it will be in the future as natural resources are finite, solar power is an ongoing power source, and if it ever stops we wont need cars. We may need to reduce our expectations as to mobility in the future and accept that a public transport system is our main distance transport. Batteries will no-doubt improve and fuel cells will be developed that are more efficient but both require charging / fueling, relying on a third party system in place for support, like the battery replacement system, but it will all cost as the ones doing it make huge profits and the government sit on the side collecting taxes. Until the catalyst is discovered to aid the splitting of water into HHO we wont have a truly clean or efficient fuel. Of course the fuel companies and government don't want that to happen as they would loose control of the profit stream they have now. The combination of solar and HHO are the way of the future, only I don't think I will live long enough to see it. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
Bob $100,000. You can't wait for the car companies to produce a car worth $100,000. Convert your own. Price depends on what you design your car to do. My Hilux had to do a minimum of 100km, and it does. The Hilux conversion was around $35,000. And for quite some time now I have not had any petrol bill, rego is a little cheaper and virtually no maintenance. I don't even have an electricity bill, none for the house, business sheds or for the Hilux! Something like 45,000km so far. I know lots of people that spend $35,000 on a car and still put petrol in it! Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Trev It would be nice to be totally green as you are able with your car however, My round trip needs is around 250 K to town and back and that's outside the battery capabilities so far, I am looking at a hybrid solution when I find a suitable motor at a price I can afford, batteries well that's another story, I have been hoping Lipo cells come down a bit, not much so far. Talking about running costs, how did you go with the motor rewind, and did you find out the cause of the problem? Being on a pension with super that flew away doesn't leave many options I am afraid. Ever hopeful that I will come across an old forklift motor or crane motor at a good price. I have even looked at making a 3 phase motor based on the ones used in model aircraft as they are very simple and should be easy to make, the worst part would be getting the magnets made, and it could be used for a turbine generator as well. Dream Dream I really like the concept of what your Hilux is, but being out of town it wouldn't be a proposition without a backup generator, hence the Hybrid. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Trev Guru Joined: 15/07/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 639 |
"Talking about running costs, how did you go with the motor rewind, and did you find out the cause of the problem? " No, only what is posted in EV 6. Trev @ drivebynature.com |
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| Redman Regular Member  Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 41 |
I would love to run my crappy little Laser on Electricity. I only go 12kl to work. I would ride the bike but there are 2 huge gorges between here and there and its dark in winter. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Redman There is a guy in Brisbane that does conversions on Suziki cars for town cars and has got a total of 100 KLM range around town, not sure of the cost but its a good start for a shopping trolley type car. He is getting plenty of work, my friend told me he was doing one a week, he has a small workshop and makes all the bits to fit the electrics in house. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Jarbar Senior Member  Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
This may be of interest to those interested in EV's Anthony. ATA Melbourne Electric Vehicle Interest Group – Electric Motors Demystified When: Wednesday 25 August Time: 7pm Where: Room EN615 (6th floor) of the Engineering Faculty, Swinburne University, Hawthorn Campus (for a map of Swinburne go to www.swinburne.edu.au/campuses/hawthorn/index.html). If you get lost on the campus ring 0433 187 702. Cost: Gold Coin Donation Robert Cook is the Technical Officer in Technical Support at Swinburne University (TAFE) and has had a wide experience with electrical motors. This talk will attempt to clarify what the various motor options are, how they operate and some of the differences between them in performance. It is anticipated that most motors will be on display. This is not intended to be a highly technical talk but is designed to give conversion interested members the understanding required to enable a rational decision to be made on the motor. There will be plenty of opportunity for questions and discussion both at the meeting and afterwards over coffee, however, if there is a specific point you would like covered, you may email that through to us on mjake@internode.on.net prior to the meeting. Web Streaming For all of those people who cannot get to the meeting - we will again be trialing a web stream of it. If you cannot get to the meeting and would like to watch it on your computer log in to www.blogtv.com/People/clintsteele. Please note that there may be a gap in the transmission whilst we move from the lecture room to the demonstration laboratory. Pre Meeting Dinner Don't forget that everyone is welcome to join us for a quick meal before the meeting at any time after 5:30pm at the Viet Star restaurant, 750 Glenferrie road, Hawthorn (about 1 block North of the railway bridge Map of Location of Viet Star). Want to bring along your EV on the night? If you have an electric vehicle and would like to bring it along to a meeting, call Michael on 0433 187 702. There is good parking very close to the door. Also if you have you have any electric vehicle components you wish to show off please feel free to bring them along. The agenda for the August meeting can be found here. The minutes of the July meeting can be found here. Michael Jacombs on behalf of the ATA MEVIG COM "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| Redman Regular Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 41 |
Will the vid be posted online permanently? I have to work most nights. |
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sPuDd Senior Member Joined: 10/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 251 |
Yeah, buy a non-existent fuel cell vehicle and fill it up at um.... um... no where! Oh that’s right - there's no hydrogen filling stations, and hydrogen is synthetically manufactured using electricity, and fuel cells require very expensive noble metals and so on and so forth. Remember hydrogen is not a fuel, its an energy storage medium just like a battery. sPuDd.. It should work ...in theory |
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| petanque don Senior Member Joined: 02/08/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
How much do Honda pay this person to promote their system and can another system. Didn’t someone from IBM suggest the world market for computers was 4? If you can accurately see the future you have a special gift. |
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| Redman Regular Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 41 |
640kb should be more than enough. Bill Gates |
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vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
Hi guys, Well, I wanted to post a new thread but ... this is already here... A race confrontation between and electric car and an electric bike 
Citroen Survolt versus Agni Z2 Vasi Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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| vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
After all electrical car I saw until now, I bet on steam to get home. Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
vasi That was cool. Too bad they didn't show a drag strip like maybe a mile long to better compare the overall performance of each system. As you can see, I've changed my avitar to an electric bike and NO that's not me riding it!! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Mac, looking at your early postings on this forum, are you *sure* is was not you riding it to the chocolate shop?  Klaus |
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| Alasdair Regular Member Joined: 12/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Hi all I was stunned to read that the Mitsubishi iMiev actually uses an electric element to heat liquid and then pump it through a heater core! What the? Can any less efficient system be found? What about all the wasted speed controller heat, motor cooling, etc. Surely a bit of smart ducting or even improving cooling efficiency on these parts using liquid cooling then simply diverting to the heater core or a small radiator. Even pass the heat through a peltier device to generate power for the pump. I really wonder about the seriousness of these companies when they do stupid stuff like that. It's probably structured so they have improvements at hand to market against competition for future models. Or they are text book smart and real world dumb. Everyone said if Mitsubishi Australia had done a 'smart' diesel hybrid instead of the 380 they would still be here. The Prius saved toyotas ass and that care only has feel good credentials. Regards Alasdair. Amc-elec |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Alasdait These so called experts leave a lot to be desired. The smart diesel dual fuel engine with HHO injection would run rings around the efficiency of any of the hybrid cars in the terms of cost per Klm. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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mid north Matt Regular Member Joined: 06/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 58 |
hi Bob what's HHO injection for the people not up to date with these things? Pt Wakefield Matt |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Matt HHO is a combination of hydrogen and oxygen as derived from water by electrolysis, it acts as a combustion enhancer in a diesel engine, or petrol engine, I experimented with it years ago in my semi trailer to save fuel as it was costing me a fortune, ever so much more now. It is an extension of water injection as a combustion enhancer in high compression motors, the extreme heat breaks the water into superheated steam to enhance the torque of the motor and get a more complete burn of the fuel. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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